Why nobody can equal the Pioneer Elite KURO plasmas yet?

[LordoftheRings]

Yeah, what's up with that?

I mean we all know that the KUROs are the best plasma ever produced (best Blacks, best 3D effect from 2D, best depth, substance, and all that Jazz, including the looks).

But what on Earth is goin' on right now? How come nobody can catch up yet with those? Where can a buy a Kuro? I want a Kuro, because it's simply the best!

Is that mean the Kuro's owners are the lucky ones, and everybody else has to endure?

Do you guys know what I'm saying? Do you see the irony on these events from circumstances of life?

Can Pioneer finally share its secret with Panny? What is it? They want too much money for the secret sauce? Or Panny is just too cheap?

I just want a Panny KURO!

[ajvdbg]

Very good question....

[Blu-Benny]

Don’t know if it’s true or not but didn’t Panasonic buy the technology Pioneer was using in their plasma’s??

[BluStation 3]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Yeah, what's up with that?

I mean we all know that the KUROs are the best plasma ever produced (best Blacks, best 3D effect from 2D, best depth, substance, and all that Jazz, including the looks).

But what on Earth is goin' on right now? How come nobody can catch up yet with those? Where can a buy a Kuro? I want a Kuro, because it's simply the best!

Is that mean the Kuro's owners are the lucky ones, and everybody else has to endure?

Do you guys know what I'm saying? Do you see the irony on these events from circumstances of life?

Can Pioneer finally share its secret with Panny? What is it? They want too much money for the secret sauce? Or Panny is just too cheap?

I just want a Panny KURO!

It's simple. Look at what the KURO plasma cost and you will see why the quality has not been matched. Also you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality. Many people don't even calibrate their plasma after dropping thousands of dollars on their television.

[ajvdbg]

Originally Posted by BluStation 3

It's simple. Look at what the KURO plasma cost and you will see why the quality has not been matched. Also you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality. Many people don't even calibrate their plasma after dropping thousands of dollars on their television.

Uh, no...unless you can verify with evidence...But yes the cost was a large factor for Pioneer since they could no longer find it profitable-enough.

[uniquetreatone]

I was truly hoping since they almost sold every panel they've made since announcing the end of production,that they would go back and sell the infinite black panel.They would make a boat load of money.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ajvdbg

Uh, no...unless you can verify with evidence...

The evidence quite simply is that ANY television will benefit from a proper calibration, Kuro included.

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Do you guys know what I'm saying? Do you see the irony on these events from circumstances of life?

I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Can Pioneer finally share its secret with Panny? What is it? They want too much money for the secret sauce? Or Panny is just too cheap?

Patents were purchased over a year ago by Panasonic.

http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an.../pdf/2009e.pdf

From page 48:

b. Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business.

You will likely start to see the effect of adding these patents to the Viera line through 2011 and 2012, though which lines will see the full extent is anyone's guess. If I were to guess it would be the top of the line series with a top of the line price tag will see the full benefit of Kuro technology and be the panel to finally oust Pioneer displays as Display King.

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by BluStation 3

It's simple. Look at what the KURO plasma cost and you will see why the quality has not been matched. Also you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality. Many people don't even calibrate their plasma after dropping thousands of dollars on their television.

Not true. The AvForums review of the Pioneer KRP-500a by Phil Hinton said
"...setting this screen to Pure mode and [colour space 2] out of the box, you are guaranteed a picture performance that has never been seen out of the box before." and "Overall the KRP-500A displays the best possible picture quality I have ever seen from a consumer TV and the fact that this performance is available out of the box, has me writing this review in disbelief." To this day, the KRP-500a is the only set that they list as Reference Status.
link
(The KRP-500a is the same as a KRP-500M with an additional media box.)

But having it ISF calibrated will unlock its full potential.

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

You will likely start to see the effect of adding these patents to the Viera line through 2011 and 2012, though which lines will see the full extent is anyone's guess. If I were to guess it would be the top of the line series with a top of the line price tag will see the full benefit of Kuro technology and be the panel to finally oust Pioneer displays as Display King.

I think they will only use some of the Kuro tech because it will not be cost effective to implement all of it. I believe they are already using the deep encased cell structure and the AR filter (at least on the VT20/25). It will be interesting to see what Panasonic offers next year but it sure is taking a long time for the 9g Pioneer to be equalled.

[ajvdbg]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

The evidence quite simply is that ANY television will benefit from a proper calibration, Kuro included.

I was responding to the direct presumption that: "you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality" which implied that you can't get a "quality picture" without a calibration. Where "proof" would be nice is if a double blind study was conducted between an uncalibrated and calibrated display to determine which had the "best" picture quality (not necessarily the most accurate), and I have yet to see it...

[saprano]

BS3 is making it sound like you need to calibrate the kuro to get a good PQ. Not true. Yes a calibration will get you better results than out of the box settings but those standard settings are still more than good enough.

I have yet to calibrate my 151 and the PQ is something extraodinary. Blacks, color, sharpness, everything. My mind boggles at the PQ i'll get when i calibrate this TV.

As for panasonic surpassing kuro. It may be awhile. Im sure they'll get close next year, maby even equalling the kuro. Who knows. We'll see in january.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I have no idea what that means.

Meaning the fact that Pioneer doesn't produce TVs anymore, the people that bought one in the past are ahead of the masses.
Business circumstances sometimes advantage older better products; and that is a fact that is often created by business planning and financial meltdowns because of overall (overhead) costs.

This was easy to know what I was talking about, as I inferred to it directly in my original post.

Patents were purchased over a year ago by Panasonic.

You will likely start to see the effect of adding these patents to the Viera line through 2011 and 2012, though which lines will see the full extent is anyone's guess. If I were to guess it would be the top of the line series with a top of the line price tag will see the full benefit of Kuro technology and be the panel to finally oust Pioneer displays as Display King.

I know that, but my question was very precise; we should be there by now, technology supposes to go forward and not backward.
What, people are enjoying their Kuros for 3-4 years now or more? And it will take another 2 or so (not even certain) before we get the equal of those Kuros? C'mon, this is truly ironic! ...And I don't live for the future, but in the present.

* As for the person before that mentioned that the Kuros are more expensive; well, I've seen them at the end of their production with heavy discounted prices. Just ask the people around that got a grreat deal on some of them you'll see.

[BluStation 3]

Originally Posted by ajvdbg

I was responding to the direct presumption that: "you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality" which implied that you can't get a "quality picture" without a calibration. Where "proof" would be nice is if a double blind study was conducted between an uncalibrated and calibrated display to determine which had the "best" picture quality (not necessarily the most accurate), and I have yet to see it...

And if I placed a panasonic panel next to a pioneer kuro panel, 9 out of 10 people wouldn't know which was which. Kuro plasmas were for a select group of individuals who could ACTUALLY tell the difference, not some average joe on a bluray forum arguing the fact of a proper calibration vs. out of the box settings that he/she thinks looks great.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I know that, but my question was very precise; we should be there by now, technology supposes to go forward and not backward.
What, people are enjoying their Kuros for 3-4 years now or more? And it will take another 2 or so (not even certain) before we get the equal of those Kuros? C'mon, this is truly ironic! ...And I don't live for the future, but in the present.

I'm not sure how it's ironic, perhaps from an Alanis Morissette perspective, but you don't buy someone's patents and immediately have them implemented, it takes time to add them into your own R&D. Obviously the full Kuro panels were not cost effective otherwise they'd still be being produced, but the 2010 designs weren't on the page a month before the sets came out, these sets are planned well over a year in advance. Viera technology is going forward, that's the point you're missing.

We have only seen one generation of Viera sets released since acquiring the patents. If you still see no advancements in the 2011 sets then it would be reasonable to suggest that if they intended to utilize Kuro patents that they should be noticeable.

You're talking about the absolute pinnacle of display technology and wondering why no-one else has equalled it? Seems blatantly obvious to me why not.

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by BluStation 3

And if I placed a panasonic panel next to a pioneer kuro panel, 9 out of 10 people wouldn't know which was which. Kuro plasmas were for a select group of individuals who could ACTUALLY tell the difference, not some average joe on a bluray forum arguing the fact of a proper calibration vs. out of the box settings that he/she thinks looks great.

A bit of an exaggeration there. I think more people would notice the difference. If it's such a non-issue, why is Panasonic themselves trying to fill the void that Pioneer left? Why are people still comparing any plasma to Pioneer if nobody can really tell the difference?

[BluStation 3]

Originally Posted by scweb13

A bit of an exaggeration there. I think more people would notice the difference. If it's such a non-issue, why is Panasonic themselves trying to fill the void that Pioneer left? Why are people still comparing any plasma to Pioneer if nobody can really tell the difference?

I am not saying its a non-issue. The point I'm trying to stress (and maybe not getting my point across successfully) is that the majority of people complaining about Kuros not being available anymore, probably know nothing about what makes an accurate picture or have even seen a Kuro in person. The same people who enjoy their out of the box picture presets without diving any further into the capabilities of their television set. If it was that serious that the OP needed to own a Kuro, I'm sure the necessary arrangements could be made in order to acquire one rather than spending time complaining in a forum. Not trying to be an ass about the issue, its just that if I had a dime for everytime people complained about Pioneer stopping production of the Kuro, I'd have my own.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm not sure how it's ironic, perhaps from an Alanis Morissette perspective, but you don't buy someone's patents and immediately have them implemented, it takes time to add them into your own R&D. Obviously the full Kuro panels were not cost effective otherwise they'd still be being produced, but the 2010 designs weren't on the page a month before the sets came out, these sets are planned well over a year in advance. Viera technology is going forward, that's the point you're missing.

We have only seen one generation of Viera sets released since acquiring the patents. If you still see no advancements in the 2011 sets then it would be reasonable to suggest that if they intended to utilize Kuro patents that they should be noticeable.

You're talking about the absolute pinnacle of display technology and wondering why no-one else has equalled it? Seems blatantly obvious to me why not.

Mmm... Nevermind! ...You got it anyway, it's all about time. And that was exactly my point.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by ajvdbg

I was responding to the direct presumption that: "you would have to get the television properly calibrated to receive the benefits of its picture quality" which implied that you can't get a "quality picture" without a calibration. Where "proof" would be nice is if a double blind study was conducted between an uncalibrated and calibrated display to determine which had the "best" picture quality (not necessarily the most accurate), and I have yet to see it...

I consider myself to be an objectivist and I'm all in favor of double-blind studies. I don't believe most of the esoteric, subjective mantra that's put out there. But when it comes to monitor calibration, the effects are so obvious, it's one case where I don't think double-blind tests are necessary. Some sets are better than others and I attended that "shootout" at Value Electronics recently and the calibrators said that THX mode on the high-end Panny was as close out of the box as they've ever seen. I think we'll see more sets "come close", but I would have to say that every set today requires calibration including the Kuros in order to get the best picture. And I say that as a cheap guy who would love to say "no" to cost of calibration.

But it's a moot point because it's almost impossible to find a new Kuro anymore anyway.

IMO, the question isn't whether sets need calibration, it's whether people care enough to have it done. I think the average person prefers to see an over-bright, over-contrasty picture and wouldn't even like the image from a properly calibrated set, which they would probably consider to be too dark.

But eventually, I think we'll see automatic calibration systems where you stick a reader on the screen and run a program and it will calibrate on its own. (Sorry, ISF guys).

[saprano]

Originally Posted by BluStation 3

I am not saying its a non-issue. The point I'm trying to stress (and maybe not getting my point across successfully) is that the majority of people complaining about Kuros not being available anymore, probably know nothing about what makes an accurate picture or have even seen a Kuro in person. The same people who enjoy their out of the box picture presets without diving any further into the capabilities of their television set. If it was that serious that the OP needed to own a Kuro, I'm sure the necessary arrangements could be made in order to acquire one rather than spending time complaining in a forum. Not trying to be an ass about the issue, its just that if I had a dime for everytime people complained about Pioneer stopping production of the Kuro, I'd have my own.

If they've never seen a kuro before why would they care if they're gone?

They're complaining for a reason. Have you actually watched content on this TV before? These TV's deserve all the attention it gets. And all the arguments it draws also .

It's going to continue this way until it's surpassed. I can say the same about people like you complaining about it. Every damn forum.

Save those dimes.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Yeah, what's up with that?

I mean we all know that the KUROs are the best plasma ever produced (best Blacks, best 3D effect from 2D, best depth, substance, and all that Jazz, including the looks).

But what on Earth is goin' on right now? How come nobody can catch up yet with those? Where can a buy a Kuro? I want a Kuro, because it's simply the best!

Is that mean the Kuro's owners are the lucky ones, and everybody else has to endure?

Do you guys know what I'm saying? Do you see the irony on these events from circumstances of life?

Can Pioneer finally share its secret with Panny? What is it? They want too much money for the secret sauce? Or Panny is just too cheap?

I just want a Panny KURO!

This post made me feel so good, as I have one of these incredible babies.
Sure they cost an arm and a leg, but I have NEVER been happier with a purchase! Just PERFECT!!!
That's what every HDTV should be like PQ wise.

I feel for you, but I am quite sure you could track done one if you really wanted to.

Originally Posted by scweb13

A bit of an exaggeration there. I think more people would notice the difference. If it's such a non-issue, why is Panasonic themselves trying to fill the void that Pioneer left? Why are people still comparing any plasma to Pioneer if nobody can really tell the difference?

Whenever I see any other TV, be it at somebody's place or in a store, I immediately remember why I spent all this money on my precious KURO, because it has the best PQ on earth.

Originally Posted by scweb13

I think they will only use some of the Kuro tech because it will not be cost effective to implement all of it. I believe they are already using the deep encased cell structure and the AR filter (at least on the VT20/25). It will be interesting to see what Panasonic offers next year but it sure is taking a long time for the 9g Pioneer to be equalled.

If it wasn't cost effective to sell it at the high prices Pioneer was selling them for, then it sure won't be cost effective for Panasonic, and therefore it's unlikely to see another HDTV match the KURO in all regards.
Time will tell.