OLED VS Lasers

[Trogdor2010]

This is a discussion about the theorhetically paradigms of visual imaging technologies in the future. Both OLED and Laser tech have the potential of bettering every aspect of the best technologies (Like CRTs). Both are still expensive to produce however, but give them some time for the consumer market.

The thing is the OLED is a direct view display technology like LCD flat panels, but far more sophisticated, while Lasers are a front or rear projection technology for technology like DLP or LCoS. Unlike those technologies, Lasers are a scanning technology like a CRT, which is why CRTs have produced those precious blacks you know (and videophiles love).

I perfer Lasers because IMO I am a front projector fanatic that wants a really big screen and the shape I like it, but there is no denying how impressive OLED is as it can become a form of paper for example, and may even replace the thinness and convience of projection screens.

What is your call?

[synergy]

Trogdor,

I think the way you put it is the way it will end up being. OLED will replace the LCD/Plasma flat panel tech and for those who want projectors lasers will probably offer them the best image quality. I know Mitsu makes laser DLPs but the dimensions of those sets are a big turn off for J6P who want ultra thin TVs.

[Flatnate]

Well I think things are going to get interesting on the projector side of things for sure as new technologies begin to shove lamps in to obsolescence. If you go to the AVS forum store AV Science you'll find a neat write up on some of the work Kodak is doing on the new laser powered DCI cinema projector. Its essentially a 3 chip dlp machine with lasers for each color. Much of their work seems to be eliminating the "spackle" or sparkleyness you get with using lasers as a light source and it sounds like they have their tech pretty well polished and ready for the market. Another company called Laser Light Engines is forming a partnership with IMAX to make what seems like a very similar product geared at the large venue Digital Cinema market. I think LED will get more powerful and really take foot in the consumer market and at some projector horsepower point you will begin to see dominance of laser powered machines essentially using LCOS or DLP internals in the same fashion.

Oooh, I find this more exciting to watch mature than 3d tech. I am basically holding on to my JVC until this stuff matures and comes down in price. I figure there is no way my next projector should have a lamp (unless I win the lotto next week and want to run say a 150 inch screen).

Here is Kodaks press release:
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa..._LDR_Kodak.pdf

[Shinma]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

This is a discussion about the theorhetically paradigms of visual imaging technologies in the future. Both OLED and Laser tech have the potential of bettering every aspect of the best technologies (Like CRTs). Both are still expensive to produce however, but give them some time for the consumer market.

The thing is the OLED is a direct view display technology like LCD flat panels, but far more sophisticated, while Lasers are a front or rear projection technology for technology like DLP or LCoS. Unlike those technologies, Lasers are a scanning technology like a CRT, which is why CRTs have produced those precious blacks you know (and videophiles love).

I perfer Lasers because IMO I am a front projector fanatic that wants a really big screen and the shape I like it, but there is no denying how impressive OLED is as it can become a form of paper for example, and may even replace the thinness and convience of projection screens.

What is your call?

Interesting discussion point, but I disagree with some aspects about how the technologies are framed. Lasers aren't fundamentally a scanning technology like CRTs. Most work done with them to this point use them in more of a flood illumination mode onto a DLP or LCoS. In this respect there isn't much difference from a lamp based projection TV. Also, I personally wouldn't characterize OLED as more sophisticated, but that is probably a question of semantics. They are a far more simple concept, but much more difficult to manufacture, primarily because of the issue with material degradation when exposed to oxygen.

If they can get around the speckle issue in a cost effective way, I think laser projection will dominate the large screen market while OLED comes along in smaller screens and ultimately replaces laser projection. Once it is cheap to produce large flat OLED panels, I can't see a reason for the competing laser technology, unless there is a breakthrough in a holographic display technology. Basically I see these as two different technology generations for large screen TVs. I can't imagine laser surviving at the same price point as OLED. The difference in available color space will be negligible if both use only three or four color projection. I guess it is possible that laser TV manufactures could keep pushing for an advantage by adding color sources faster than OLED can keep up, but I don't see this happening for very long. I can't wait for the day when I'm struggling to choose between the two though.

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Well I think things are going to get interesting on the projector side of things for sure as new technologies begin to shove lamps in to obsolescence. If you go to the AVS forum store AV Science you'll find a neat write up on some of the work Kodak is doing on the new laser powered DCI cinema projector. Its essentially a 3 chip dlp machine with lasers for each color. Much of their work seems to be eliminating the "spackle" or sparkleyness you get with using lasers as a light source and it sounds like they have their tech pretty well polished and ready for the market. Another company called Laser Light Engines is forming a partnership with IMAX to make what seems like a very similar product geared at the large venue Digital Cinema market. I think LED will get more powerful and really take foot in the consumer market and at some projector horsepower point you will begin to see dominance of laser powered machines essentially using LCOS or DLP internals in the same fashion.

Oooh, I find this more exciting to watch mature than 3d tech. I am basically holding on to my JVC until this stuff matures and comes down in price. I figure there is no way my next projector should have a lamp (unless I win the lotto next week and want to run say a 150 inch screen).

Here is Kodaks press release:
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa..._LDR_Kodak.pdf

Thanks for the read. It sounds like the tech is coming sooner than later. If not, I will be fine with LED.

The article is actually pretty interesting that how cost productive that Laser tech can be (such as smaller and more convienient). However it sounds disapointing if they may used cheaper, less sharp optics.

Originally Posted by Shinma

Interesting discussion point, but I disagree with some aspects about how the technologies are framed. Lasers aren't fundamentally a scanning technology like CRTs. Most work done with them to this point use them in more of a flood illumination mode onto a DLP or LCoS. In this respect there isn't much difference from a lamp based projection TV. Also, I personally wouldn't characterize OLED as more sophisticated, but that is probably a question of semantics. They are a far more simple concept, but much more difficult to manufacture, primarily because of the issue with material degradation when exposed to oxygen.

If they can get around the speckle issue in a cost effective way, I think laser projection will dominate the large screen market while OLED comes along in smaller screens and ultimately replaces laser projection. Once it is cheap to produce large flat OLED panels, I can't see a reason for the competing laser technology, unless there is a breakthrough in a holographic display technology. Basically I see these as two different technology generations for large screen TVs. I can't imagine laser surviving at the same price point as OLED. The difference in available color space will be negligible if both use only three or four color projection. I guess it is possible that laser TV manufactures could keep pushing for an advantage by adding color sources faster than OLED can keep up, but I don't see this happening for very long. I can't wait for the day when I'm struggling to choose between the two though.

I remember people were commenting on the function of lasers as a scanninng technology, granted they are based off DLP or LCoS chips.

I really can't see any rear projection set competing with OLED, even with lasers. I think that Lasers would be successful in the front projection section unless if they can make OLED displays as large or even larger at it's price.

Speaking of that, they can even use OLED as a wall print, like people taping a bunch of OLEDs on a wall. You can even roll it up like a projection screen .

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

This is a discussion about the theorhetically paradigms of visual imaging technologies in the future. Both OLED and Laser tech have the potential of bettering every aspect of the best technologies (Like CRTs). Both are still expensive to produce however, but give them some time for the consumer market.

The thing is the OLED is a direct view display technology like LCD flat panels, but far more sophisticated, while Lasers are a front or rear projection technology for technology like DLP or LCoS. Unlike those technologies, Lasers are a scanning technology like a CRT, which is why CRTs have produced those precious blacks you know (and videophiles love).

I perfer Lasers because IMO I am a front projector fanatic that wants a really big screen and the shape I like it, but there is no denying how impressive OLED is as it can become a form of paper for example, and may even replace the thinness and convience of projection screens.

What is your call?

Apple's recent 3D patent apparently uses some sort of projection technology to produce a glasses-free quasi-holographic image. Since you like projection tech, what do you think about that?

[laie_techie]

My biggest concern about laser technology has to do with eye safety. I know it's only 5mW (or thereabouts) but even our small laser pointers supposedly cause damage if shown directly at an eye.

[ay221]

Originally Posted by laie_techie

My biggest concern about laser technology has to do with eye safety. I know it's only 5mW (or thereabouts) but even our small laser pointers supposedly cause damage if shown directly at an eye.

It is diffused already by the time it leaves the lens.


If I could get a large roll up screen like a 110" that is not much heavier than my screen. If the price was around $5k, I would get that over a projector.

[Shinma]

Trogdor2010,

I think we are basically of the same belief; the difference in preference between the two will be size vs cost. Once the cost per inch is the same, OLED is just too good and convenient. I can't wait until I can get a 100"+ tv that is as convenient to deal with as hanging a poster.

laie_techie,

Safety is always a concern when dealing with high power lasers because of the ability to easily collimate and concentrate energy. However, there is nothing fundamentally more dangerous about lasers. You can do damage with lamps if you concentrate the same amount of energy to the same area. ay221 was right that the light is diffused to levels where the danger is no different from current tvs. The bigger concern is dealing with speckle from the coherent sources. It is distracting, causes headaches in many people, and very difficult to get rid of. For example, you would need to overlap 100 lasers to get the uniformity in brightness of the speckle down to a 10% variation. There are other tricks that can be played to average the speckle, but this is still a challenge for the industry.

radagast,

I think virtually every display engineer in the field has thought of something similar to apple's patent. I don't know all the details, but it is essentially a tracking stereoscopic technology. If they actually got the concept patented, instead of the actual implementation, it would have to be because they filed pretty early in the game (I think 2006). I'm an apple technology fan, but for them to call it "virtually holographic" took a lot of nerve. This is not remotely a holographic technology; however, the data set required for a prerecorded movie might be on the same level. What this technology allows is for users without glasses to move without being out of the "sweet spots" (a problem you have with parallax barrier displays), and for the display to change the perspective angle. That is a pretty big improvement over current 3D displays, but requires a significant change in image capture and data delivery. Also, I don't see this as being a big improvement for a home theater environment. I think where apple is going with this is that for monitors or portable devices, where you are closer to the screen, they can calculate the environment for only the current viewing angle. This could be a huge leap for computers, even if it never has any use for movies, and doesn't really require that much more computation. A true holographic display would not only allow you to change your viewing angle, but would also allow you to focus on different object in the image. Unless I'm really missing something, this technology does not address this. For a computer desktop or something like a pixar movie they set the depth of field to infinity, so it isn't a big deal, but to make the image seem like you are looking through a window this is needed.

[PDumpel]

What is LPD?
LPD is a revolutionary way to build high-performance, low-energy displays. Unlike traditional technology that wastes light with filters and layers, LPD uses a patented Laser Engine to convert low-power, solid-state lasers into pure light.

LPD is unique display technology combining the low-power consumption and reliability of solid-state lasers with a surface emissive screen. Fundamentally different from LED or LCD-based display technology, LPD creates a modular, highly configurable display panel with brilliant image quality and the industry’s smallest environmental footprint. To make this possible, Prysm rethought what a large-format display should be from the ground up. We wanted to build a display that had none of the competition's issues (heat output, high-energy requirements, short lifespan, etc.) while comfortably exceeding their capabilities.

What's in an LPD display?
By rethinking everything, Prysm created an advanced yet elegantly simple solution to the challenge of building a low power yet bright high-definition large format display. At the heart of the system is the TD1 tile. Each TD1 tile consists of three components: the solid state Laser Engine, the Laser Processor, and the Phosphor Screen.

The revolutionary ecovative technology behind Prysm’s TD1 display combines extremely low power consumption with vivid image quality that can be clearly viewed from almost any angle. Built around the innovative Laser Engine, the TD1 is not only the market’s longest lasting display, its lack of toxic compounds and low energy consumption sets the bar for ecovative display technology.

What kind of laser?
We use a solid state laser diode emitting a 405nm wavelength (blue-violet) laser beam. In many ways they resemble those used in high density optical storage media devices (think Blu-ray™ player). To cover the entire phosphor screen, the collection of laser beams are reflected by mirrors—the Laser Processor—to create the necessary number of image lines.

[ay221]

I read that they got around those laser speckle issues, and cheaply too. I will have to find that article.


Edit. Here is one:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=28987

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by PDumpel

What is LPD?
LPD is a revolutionary way to build high-performance, low-energy displays. Unlike traditional technology that wastes light with filters and layers, LPD uses a patented Laser Engine to convert low-power, solid-state lasers into pure light.

LPD is unique display technology combining the low-power consumption and reliability of solid-state lasers with a surface emissive screen. Fundamentally different from LED or LCD-based display technology, LPD creates a modular, highly configurable display panel with brilliant image quality and the industry’s smallest environmental footprint. To make this possible, Prysm rethought what a large-format display should be from the ground up. We wanted to build a display that had none of the competition's issues (heat output, high-energy requirements, short lifespan, etc.) while comfortably exceeding their capabilities.

What's in an LPD display?
By rethinking everything, Prysm created an advanced yet elegantly simple solution to the challenge of building a low power yet bright high-definition large format display. At the heart of the system is the TD1 tile. Each TD1 tile consists of three components: the solid state Laser Engine, the Laser Processor, and the Phosphor Screen.

The revolutionary ecovative technology behind Prysm’s TD1 display combines extremely low power consumption with vivid image quality that can be clearly viewed from almost any angle. Built around the innovative Laser Engine, the TD1 is not only the market’s longest lasting display, its lack of toxic compounds and low energy consumption sets the bar for ecovative display technology.

What kind of laser?
We use a solid state laser diode emitting a 405nm wavelength (blue-violet) laser beam. In many ways they resemble those used in high density optical storage media devices (think Blu-ray™ player). To cover the entire phosphor screen, the collection of laser beams are reflected by mirrors—the Laser Processor—to create the necessary number of image lines.

Thanks for the document. I am concerned exactly how this would be perferred over OLED (Other than maybe price).

Originally Posted by ay221

I read that they got around those laser speckle issues, and cheaply too. I will have to find that article.


Edit. Here is one:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=28987

Thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by radagast

Apple's recent 3D patent apparently uses some sort of projection technology to produce a glasses-free quasi-holographic image. Since you like projection tech, what do you think about that?

I am interested in how they will implement it, however, I wonder what technology will this be based on? Many people have beeen in development of the kind to achieve it, yet they are usually based on a well know tech (usually DLP due to it's small size single chip sets). Also, (Kind of sceptical) Apple isn't exactly known for the videophile crowd.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

This is a discussion about the theorhetically paradigms of visual imaging technologies in the future. Both OLED and Laser tech have the potential of bettering every aspect of the best technologies (Like CRTs)....

We’re beyond “potential” and have *proof of concept* especially with these OLED monitors, which were just recently announced –

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...mOkzA4xlKyK-yw
Real world side-by-side demos of the new BVM-E’s ^ with the previous industry considered *gold standard* mastering monitors (the BVM-series CRTs) demonstrate the BVM-E’s to have better color accuracy and contrast (with no flicker like CRTs) and a greater viewing angle than any reference LCD… a least I know of in existence.

If you would like to see for yourself and are in the N.Y. area, sign up and attend the New York Quality Workshop on March 2 –https://secure.connect.pbs.org/PbsDo...up/default.asp (this event is not restricted to people involved in public television)

P.S. This is the direct link to the workshop - https://secure.connect.pbs.org/PbsDo...up/events.html

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by laie_techie

My biggest concern about laser technology has to do with eye safety. I know it's only 5mW (or thereabouts) but even our small laser pointers supposedly cause damage if shown directly at an eye.

At this time, laser projectors come under the FDA umbrella of the rules and regs for laser light shows which deal with more focused beams not really applicable to laser front projection for movies…but, rules is rules, so a few companies (spearheaded by SONY, IMAX, etc.) are forming an industry trade group to have discussions with the FDA to ‘modernize’ these regulations, given developments in laser-projection cinema systems.

In the meantime, I believe that Kodak, on its own, has applied for a variance from the FDA for its projector.

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

We’re beyond “potential” and have *proof of concept* especially with these OLED monitors, which were just recently announced –

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...mOkzA4xlKyK-yw
Real world side-by-side demos of the new BVM-E’s ^ with the previous industry considered *gold standard* mastering monitors (the BVM-series CRTs) demonstrate the BVM-E’s to have better color accuracy and contrast (with no flicker like CRTs) and a greater viewing angle than any reference LCD… a least I know of in existence.

If you would like to see for yourself and are in the N.Y. area, sign up and attend the New York Quality Workshop on March 2 –https://secure.connect.pbs.org/PbsDo...up/default.asp (this event is not restricted to people involved in public television)

P.S. This is the direct link to the workshop - https://secure.connect.pbs.org/PbsDo...up/events.html

Neat, thanks for the link.

Unfortunately I live at the Pacific side of the states.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

Neat, thanks for the link.

Unfortunately I live at the Pacific side of the states.

Too bad, but, I’ll keep that in mind in case any future events come up in your neck of the woods…and, while I’m visiting this thread, hi Shinma, good to see you’re still around since last we mused about the SPIE (http://spie.org/x15614.xml) event, albeit back in ’08.

Hope all is well.
Your knowledge is a true attribute to this forum.

[Shinma]

Originally Posted by ay221

I read that they got around those laser speckle issues, and cheaply too. I will have to find that article.


Edit. Here is one:

http:///Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=28987

That actually is a pretty cool invention, but I wouldn't list it as the holy grail. There are two kinds of speckle: Objective and Subjective. The Objective speckle is the actual non-uniformity in the illumination system from coherent interference. This would actually cause pixels that are dark or bright, and generally would be a static phenomenon. Subjective speckle is an imaging artifact of coherent light that has characteristics related to the imaging system. If you are watching a laser projected onto a rough surface your eye would be the imaging system and the objective speckle would appear to change with viewing angle and even pupil dilation. What the technology in your link does is increase the viewing angle without using a rough surface to do this. It holographically makes angular copies of the image with the same phase. In some cases this could help reduce the Objective speckle, but I wouldn't think of this as a cure that lets the designers go crazy. For Subjective speckle this should get around the problem as long as the surface of this material and all other surfaces after it are optically flat. This means you would need a quality glass surface, and it would need to stay clean. Any roughness would bring the speckle right back. It can't do intensity averaging because it is still the same coherent source being copied at different angles. Pretty cool stuff, but I believe the site exaggerates its miraculous powers a little bit. Also, these devices are all optically recorded volume holograms, which have their own production and cost issues.

Hi Penton-Man,
Thanks for the links and comments! I'm pretty excited about the potential for the new technologies, and some of the products already coming out. By the way, you have an incredible memory. I'm still around, but my schedule doesn't doesn't offer as much time as I would like to participate.... still, it's tough for me to pass up the occasional technology discussion between travel.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Shinma

Hi Penton-Man,
Thanks for the links and comments! I'm pretty excited about the potential for the new technologies, and some of the products already coming out....

lol, yeah, but I think you and I may have more engineer/scientist in us - rather than consumer –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZAAZ...feature=relmfu

[McBain]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In the meantime, I believe that Kodak, on its own, has applied for a variance from the FDA for its projector.

Yes, Kodak was successful in getting the variance. Link: FDA Greenlights Kodak Laser Projection

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

At this time, laser projectors come under the FDA umbrella of the rules and regs for laser light shows which deal with more focused beams not really applicable to laser front projection for movies…but, rules is rules, so a few companies (spearheaded by SONY, IMAX, etc.) are forming an industry trade group to have discussions with the FDA to ‘modernize’ these regulations, given developments in laser-projection cinema systems.

In the meantime, I believe that Kodak, on its own, has applied for a variance from the FDA for its projector.

Re: LIPA – http://www.lipainfo.org/

For locals, there is a meeting tomorrow evening – http://www.hsmpte.org/
Technology and working with regulatory agencies (like the FDA) marches onward!