Classic Hong Kong Movie Quality

[drees5761]

There has been much debate on this forum and elsewhere about the quality of a lot of the Blu ray titles from Hong Kong of classic films.
I just purchased two titles and they could not be more different.
First is the Tokyo Shock USA Blu ray of Five Element Ninjas from 1981.
To start, all i can say is the picture quality is stunning! Crisp, clear with only a hint of DNR, this is one of the best Blu ray Hong Kong movies i have seen.
Audio is as it should be MONO Mandarin with clear English subtitles (in yellow) and an English dub if you like that sort of thing. Extras are just a short interview with Lo Meng and trailers, but i don't expect much bonus material from these type of titles.
The other title i got was Royal Warriors starring Michelle Yeoh and released by K&R in Hong Kong. Great film but this must be one of the worst Blu rays i have ever seen, its not much better than VHS and would pass as a poor DVD release. Grainy (not in a good way), noisy, just awful.
Why such a disparity?
I think it boils down to money. Companies like K&R just cant be bothered to spend on a proper HD re-master, these are meant for Hong Kong, don't forget people there still buy VCD's.
The argument that the elements no longer exist i think is nonsense, Especially bigger companies such as Shaw Brothers and Golden Harvest would have looked after the negatives, maybe not so much smaller independent companies such as Seasonal.
I will not buy another K&R Blu ray until i know that its an ok proper HD transfer, such as My Father Is a Hero and Tiger On The Beat which are OK even if they have a little too much DNR applied. I am off now to buy Heroes Two, another Tokyo Shock release which has great reviews also, lets hope some enterprising Western company gets to release these classic films properly in the future, because they sure aren't doing it in Hong Kong at the moment.

[Brutimus]

The problem is that Fortune Star supplies the masters for K&R to use when making the blu-ray, and Fortune Star, from what I've read around the internet, doesn't have a single true HD scan of any of their older films. Newer titles on the K&R label, such as Johnnie To's Throwdown (2004), have HD masters, with true 1080p picture and are right up there in quality with the rest of the world's blu-rays. I would recommend sticking with only post-2000 movies on the K&M label and wait for someone else to release the older stuff.

[logboy]

USA releases have a better chance as far as hk films on bd are concerned. sounds odd, but there's very little market for films on bd in hk, so not worth investing in restoration or presentation to such an extent. may not be huge sales stateside either, but there's a bigger market for bd & a big enough potential audience by comparison.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by drees5761

The argument that the elements no longer exist i think is nonsense.

I don't believe anyone here has convincingly argued that for every older HK film out there elements no longer exist. I think it is pretty obvious that quite often even the content owners do not know what does exist. So, looking for a definitive answer would be pointless.

One argument that was made, and I was involved in it, is that for many older films there are no suitable elements, or they are simply not available. I have personally inquired about a couple of films directly at the labels in Hong Kong and this was the impression I was left with: no suitable elements to work with.

Yes, you are probably correct that everything boils down to money, but I would also add that the situation in Hong Kong is likely very similar to that in the former Soviet Union, and specifically now in Russia. There is a lot more to work with in, say, France, and even Germany, than there is in Russia. There are hundreds of films from Mosfilm, for instance, that were sold in the West and the Russians are now trying to buy them back to create archives, etc. Sokurov's films, for example, are scattered all over the West.

Hong Kong isn't any different, I think. Actually, it appears that since the unification in 1997 many films were sold to wealthy collectors in the Mainland.

You probably have a very good point there that the HK studios are simply not willing to spend money to track down negatives, create new masters, etc.

Which is why my take on the entire situation is this: Buy whatever you wish to own now, and if a better release comes up later on, simply upgrade.

Pro-B

[drees5761]

Some very good points Pro basoonist, but i think its crazy, if true, that Fortune Star doesn't have a single true HD scan of any of their older films. If this is so then we should boycott them until its sorted out.
With the current climate i do wonder if anyone is going to take up these films in the west, with Dragon Dynasty virtually gone and in the UK, Cine Asia are very quiet with releases, its doubtful.
Makes you wonder how companies like Criterion keep going and presumably make money as some of there titles are very obscure, i for one would pay Criterion prices if the products were good enough.

[OldPangYau]

Fortune Star had to have HD masters at some point, but perhaps someone ended up losing/deleting them. Lord knows a lot of their standard def transfers were touted as being "struck from brand new HD masters". I mean, Celestial Pictures restored the bulk of their Shaw Brothers films in HD for DVD and then, later, blu-ray... and I've yet to see an upconverted SB blu-ray (although, I've seen 1080i discs).

I found out recently that the only reason why the Bruce Lee films had proper HD transfers was because Fortune Star (allegedly) outsourced the negatives for Big Boss, Fist of Fury, and Way of the Dragon to an American company. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but it would make more sense as to why those films yet NONE of the other classic 70s/80s Golden Harvest films had proper HD transfers.

I've said it before, but at this point, our only hope is that another company will get the rights from Fortune Star, just as Fortune Star obtained them from Media Asia. Media Asia was great for Golden Harvest on VHS, Fortune Star was great for Golden Harvest on DVD... but we've yet to see a company be great for Golden Harvest on blu-ray.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by drees5761

Some very good points Pro basoonist, but i think its crazy, if true, that Fortune Star doesn't have a single true HD scan of any of their older films. If this is so then we should boycott them until its sorted out.
With the current climate i do wonder if anyone is going to take up these films in the west, with Dragon Dynasty virtually gone and in the UK, Cine Asia are very quiet with releases, its doubtful.
Makes you wonder how companies like Criterion keep going and presumably make money as some of there titles are very obscure, i for one would pay Criterion prices if the products were good enough.

I don't know what else to tell you. Awhile ago I spoke with someone in Hong Kong to find out exactly what masters were going to be used for the Japanese releases of the A Better Tomorrow trilogy. Let's put it this way: The answers I received were pretty strange.

Honestly, I think that you are expecting way too much from the HK distributors. They are definitely not operating as, say, Criterion does.

In the West, things have been streamlined for years. During the DVD era my communication with HK distributors was rather sporadic, but my impression was always that things are quite loose there.

This being said, I am pretty sure that if someone came up with the right amount of money, you would be seeing some rather impressive catalog releases. That someone isn't around yet.

Originally Posted by drees5761

With the current climate i do wonder if anyone is going to take up these films in the west, with Dragon Dynasty virtually gone and in the UK, Cine Asia are very quiet with releases, its doubtful.

Unfortunately, I could not agree more. Like I said earlier, this is why my take on the whole situation has been: buy whatever you can and want. I honestly don't think you will see the type of Renaissance you are seeing with major western classics here in the U.S. and in Europe. Hong Kong is a very different market.

Originally Posted by OldPangYau

I've said it before, but at this point, our only hope is that another company will get the rights from Fortune Star, just as Fortune Star obtained them from Media Asia. Media Asia was great for Golden Harvest on VHS, Fortune Star was great for Golden Harvest on DVD... but we've yet to see a company be great for Golden Harvest on blu-ray.

Also agreed A distributor like Wild Side in France would be right.

Pro-B

[PGW]

I believe "The Legend of Wisely" is hi-def. It certainly looked like it to me. "Peking Opera Blues" didn't look bad - but not much better than the most recent DVD. On the other hand, a lot of other titles ("Zu Warriors From The Magic Mountain") for instance, are clearly not blu-ray quality - they look like they've been upconverted directly from DVDs. Unfortunately, I found this to be the case more often than not, and quickly stopped buying HK blu-rays... even if they're cheap, why waste money on something that looks like the DVD I already have sitting on my shelf (if not worse)?

[Mrbrownst0ne]

u also have to keep in mind how the quality of the video was when it came out and how improved it was on a dvd. I bought the chinese ghost story trilogy ( blu-ray)since i consider that movie alot of fun. While it wasn't what i would call a pure blu-ray clarity.. however it was still about 40% better then the original dvd's i have. So i was quite please.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

I don't know what else to tell you. Awhile ago I spoke with someone in Hong Kong to find out exactly what masters were going to be used for the Japanese releases of the A Better Tomorrow trilogy. Let's put it this way: The answers I received were pretty strange.

Could you share their answers? I would be interested in learning about what masters they had.

I'm crossing my fingers for proper BD releases of the John Woo and Jackie Chan classics but it seems increasingly unlikely. You'd think one could at least locate a 35mm release print or something. It would be better than what's out there now.

[PGW]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

u also have to keep in mind how the quality of the video was when it came out and how improved it was on a dvd. I bought the chinese ghost story trilogy ( blu-ray)since i consider that movie alot of fun. While it wasn't what i would call a pure blu-ray clarity.. however it was still about 40% better then the original dvd's i have. So i was quite please.

Are you talking about the old Media Asia DVDs (that probably aren't even anamorphic widescreen) or the more recent Fortune Star DVDs?

[OldPangYau]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Could you share their answers? I would be interested in learning about what masters they had.

I'm crossing my fingers for proper BD releases of the John Woo and Jackie Chan classics but it seems increasingly unlikely. You'd think one could at least locate a 35mm release print or something. It would be better than what's out there now.

If only Criterion would re-license The Killer and Hard Boiled, we'd be in heaven with at least those two Hell, Dragon Dynasty seems to be letting the rights to a lot of films lapse lately (Well Go releasing Flash Point, Echo Bridge releasing Supercop, Shout! Factory soon releasing Crime Story, etc), so these two could be up for grabs. Dunno who has the rights to A Better Tomorrow here though... last US release was the DVD by Anchor Bay 10 or so years ago.

[Mike dk]

If people don't demand quality they won't get it. Why some of you keep buying blu rays that is not HD is beyond me. But to each their own I guess.

I don't belive for one second that HD sources do not excist for most of the films released on blu ray as "upscales". It all boils down to money. Why bother demanding HD sources when people buy the blu rays anyway? It is more expensive to make a real HD master than using a SD as source and just upscale.
And why releasing "upscales" as being thrue HD? The blu rays claims to be true 1080p picture and HD sound, but thay are (for the most part) not. They do this because people buy their shit. There is no excuse for ripping off costumers of their hard earned money.

Would you buy a car that a company advertise as being a Rolls Royce, but when you get it is in fact a Folks Wagen? (nothing against a good Folks Wagen

Had K&R been a danish company (i'm danish) they would not be able to advertise films as being HD when they are not. People would go ape-shit, complain to the right authorities, and the company would be out of business almost before that got started. Quality is the key word here.

But, with the hong Kong blu rays....some people still buy them with the argument that "one can always upgrade if a better version comes along". Sorry, not my why of thinking! I don't have a money tree in my garden.

Anyway, we all love Asian cinema and it is indeed very frustrating that we most likely won't get all the great classics in HD

[drees5761]

Could not agree more, people are being duped and conned by some of these releases, the only way to stop it, is to not buy them in the first place.

[tsetse27]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Hong Kong isn't any different, I think. Actually, it appears that since the unification in 1997 many films were sold to wealthy collectors in the Mainland.

Hi Pro-B,
I am very curious about your comment. Where you heard about this? Do you mean the original negative was sold to someone in Mainland? That is crazy!

I feel sad whenever seeing subject like this is bought up. I do not know the film industry over there. But I am originally from there, born and grow up. Hate to said this, majority of HK people treat movie as commercial product. make it, consume it. filmmaker make money, audiences have fun for two hours, the trade is done, end of story. film preservation? what is that? For sure there are film buff there (hell, there is even a film museum there,) but not enough to change the mindset. Bottom-line: yes, money!

I find it a miracle someone is willing to put up the money to remaster all those Shaws Bro titles, what, 10 years ago... I always wonder if they recoup their investment?

If not Fortune Star, I guess eventually someone will invest and bring proper treatment to all those classics (hopefully we do not have to wait that long like those Shaws titles.) But that only limited to the tie-1 titles: Jackie Chan / Samon Hung / Bruce Lee / John Woo... but I am worry about those less know titles. How many of you heard of "UFO film"? They made many interesting films in the early 90s... how much I wish to watch those in HD. But no, they don't even have proper 16X9 DVD release in HK.

[toddly6666]

Getting upset over pseudo Blu-rays consistently marketed as "HD, restored, 1080p" is the same as someone getting upset that McDonald's is not real food. Who cares what they are advertising - you are all grown ups, you should all know about false advertising as an adult, you should all know what you are getting when you eat from McDonalds, and you all know what you are getting when you buy K&R. Stop dreaming about amazing transfers. The majority of the K&R Blu-rays (aka Superbit DVDs or DVD Plus) are still better (even if it's slightly better) than their previous versions. Most of you have owned the crappy VHS, VCD, and DVD versions over the years in which each new technology advertises their superiority, so please don't complain about double dipping, triple dipping, and re-buying your favorite movies on every single format because video consumers usually do that - buy their favorite movie on every single format even if the quality is not as good when compared to other movies released on that same format. Keep on complaining, waiting, and holding off for the "superior" version of your favorite movie - and before you know it, you'll be dead.

Protesting, complaining, and boycotting won't change a thing either with the Hong Kong film industry, so save your energy and just enjoy the very slight upgrades these K&R Blu-rays offer. And please stop complaining about false adverstising. Almost every other DVD or Blu-ray elsewhere says "collector's edition or limited edition" on the packaging which usually means squat aka false advertising.

[drees5761]

You may want to waste money on "very slight upgrades" but i won't, i did not buy a Blu Ray player and home cinema sound set up for a "slight upgrade".
I will spend my money elsewhere, customers have every right to complain if what they are getting is not what its supposed to be, be it food, blu rays or anything else!

[BigManDeath]

HD masters for these films do exist - Echo Bridge has proven that with their blu-ray releases of some of Jackie Chan's films (e.g. Operation Condor). These have been sourced from the Miramax library, who licensed quite a few excellent HK action films years ago and has been sitting on them ever since. Some of these have shown up on Netflix streaming in HD (uncut and subtitled), but have recently been pulled. I checked Dragons Forever when it was available on streaming and it was a very nice true HD print (in Cantonese with English subtitles). Before BCI Home Entertainment was shut down they were on the verge of releasing a bunch of these Miramax HK action films (they had sub-licensed the films from Miramax) - uncut and subtitled - story link here.

There is still a slim chance that some of these films could make it to blu-ray via Echo Bridge or another company that has licensed the films from Miramax (I think Lionsgate has a number of their titles as well). I would love to see the uncut prints that BCI were going to release make it to blu-ray.

The point of all this is, again, that elements exist for most of the films in the Golden Harvest/Fortune Star library. Not only do the elements exist, some of them have ALMOST been released. So the upscaled blu-rays that are being produced in HK are not a case of "this is as good as it gets," but the result of incompetence, a shady business plan (release upscales now, then true HD versions later), or both.

[PGW]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

Getting upset over pseudo Blu-rays consistently marketed as "HD, restored, 1080p" is the same as someone getting upset that McDonald's is not real food. Who cares what they are advertising - you are all grown ups, you should all know about false advertising as an adult, you should all know what you are getting when you eat from McDonalds, and you all know what you are getting when you buy K&R. Stop dreaming about amazing transfers.

A. McDonald's is not advertising their product as anything other than what it is. So much for THAT comparison.

B. "Who cares what they are advertising..." -- oh, I don't know. Maybe people who love films and are pissed off at wasting money on blu-rays that don't look very different from DVDs they've already spent their money on.

C. "...you are all grown ups, you should all know about false advertising as an adult..." So it's OUR fault if we're stupid enough to believe false claims on a blu-ray, not THEIR fault for making such claims in the first place. I gather, then, if someone scams you into buying the Brooklyn Bridge you'll simply feel stupid but harbor them no ill-will for taking your money... after all, it's YOUR fault for being scammed.

Nah. I think not buying the HK crap is a FAR better solution. Yes, I realize it's a drop in the bucket and they probably don't care about our market anyway... but I, for one, don't LIKE being ripped off with lies and poor quality product.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by PGW

A. McDonald's is not advertising their product as anything other than what it is. So much for THAT comparison.

B. "Who cares what they are advertising..." -- oh, I don't know. Maybe people who love films and are pissed off at wasting money on blu-rays that don't look very different from DVDs they've already spent their money on.

C. "...you are all grown ups, you should all know about false advertising as an adult..." So it's OUR fault if we're stupid enough to believe false claims on a blu-ray, not THEIR fault for making such claims in the first place. I gather, then, if someone scams you into buying the Brooklyn Bridge you'll simply feel stupid but harbor them no ill-will for taking your money... after all, it's YOUR fault for being scammed.

Nah. I think not buying the HK crap is a FAR better solution. Yes, I realize it's a drop in the bucket and they probably don't care about our market anyway... but I, for one, don't LIKE being ripped off with lies and poor quality product.

Could not agree more on all of these points, PGW.

There are many HK films that I would love to have, but refuse to purchase because of their quality. That being said, there are some that I will buy just because I love them that much (but those are very slim). If K&R is going to keep doing this, it isn't worth my money (with international shipping, to boot) to pay for films that are marginally superior to their predecessor. I may as well just keep the DVD or watch it online without subtitles. Either way, I don't have to pay more money for blus that just are not up to par.