Awesome interview with Epic's Mark Rein - UT3 user generated content

[LynxFX]

Seems like these two guys really don't understand what has been happening in PC gaming for the past decade. Now it is arriving in full force on the PS3 and it takes Epic's Mark Rein to set them straight. Very good stuff!!

Full interview is here (8 pages long).

Copied the good stuff cut out by joeblow at AVS:

BS: So in terms of being able to make mods and maps and stuff on the PC and then play them on the PS3, is that still happening?

MR: Absolutely, yeah.

BS: How did you get that to go through? It seems somewhat technically difficult.

MR: No, I mean, we have Unreal Editor on the PC version of the game, and the content is compatible between the two. That's the thing that people don't realize. When you take a level in Unreal Tournament 3, you build it on PC. The exact same levels you're running between the PC and the PS3.

The things that are different between the games aren't really the levels. They're the speed that certain vehicles move, the firing rate of weapons, the turning radius for the player camera. Things like that are tweaked specifically between PC and console. But the levels and the content itself is 100 percent compatible. It's really no big deal. You make something on the PC, and say, "Oh, now I can go test it on my PlayStation 3," right then and there.

What we do to finalize it, make sure it makes the most efficient use of memory, and runs the fastest, is we bake it down to the PS3 version, but that's just like saving a file in Word in a different format. If you save it on a PlayStation 3 format, you can stick it on the Internet, and someone can download it, put it on a memory card, and import it into their PlayStation 3 version of the game. That works really well.

BS: Level files are pretty small, in general.

MR: Not always! There's more than just levels we're talking about here.

BS: Is it also possible to do graphical mods?

MR: Absolutely. You kind of have to divorce yourself from the idea that levels are just maps. Let's say you have something called the level. A level can contain maps, vehicles, models, static masses, materials, UnrealScript code, our digital scripting tools, matinee cinematics, and cascade particle systems. That's what our game content is. Pretty much what any gamer would want in a level.

BS: To me, that's surprising. You don't have to comment on this, but people have had trouble developing things for the PS3 because of the way it deals with certain types of data. If a modder is creating a mod, obviously they're not going to be as savvy as PS3-committed developers. It seems like it would be...

MR: I don't understand that logic.

CN: Well, the engine's already running on the PS3.

BS: Right. The engine's running. That's the hard part.

MR: A mod maker doesn't have to be any less savvy than Epic Games. That's what we do. We get the engine up and running on the platform, get it to run fast, and get everything to work. It takes a while to learn the system and do that, but once that's done, any content that runs on a PC that's roughly equivalent to the performance of the PlayStation 3 should run pretty much the same on the PlayStation 3. It's a breakthrough. I know it's hard to wrap your head around.

BS: I'm thinking about new assets kind of stuff.

MR: Yeah, people create completely new assets. It's a wonderful thing.

BS: To me, that seems to be a bit of a conceptual leap, in terms of how people are trying to run stuff. Maybe I've got it all wrong.

MR: No, that's what's so special about this game. We're enabling people not just to move the furniture around in the levels we give them. You've seen in-game level editors, and that's essentially what they do. They let you move blocks and stuff they already created around, and in the most sophisticated one, maybe it lets you make terrain and things like that. We're divorcing ourselves from that kind of ridiculousness.

This is the full power of the Unreal Editor. The same editor we used to create the games is now available to you. You want to import your objects you made in 3D Studio Max or Maya? Bring them in! You want to code an UnrealScript? Code an UnrealScript! All those things you can do. If they fit on our map, you can stick them on the PlayStation 3 and they'll run!

BS: How does exactly that go through you?

MR: It doesn't go through us.

CN: Does Sony not care?

MR: It's user-created content! It's fantastic! I can't understand why people are so nervous about what Sony... no, Sony's wonderful. When they embrace user-created content, that's what it means to be an open system. That's why we're on PlayStation 3 first -- because they are embracing user-created content. It's not just moving the deck chairs around the boat. They are embracing real art.

CN: They have technical requirements for people who make packaged games. Someone could make a giant map that says "F*ck Sony. Microsoft rules!" or something like that, or even something that's just offensive to other players.

MR: If you're going to allow user-created content, you're going to allow user-created content.

CN: It's not going to be... I bet they're going to police LittleBigPlanet and other stuff.

MR: Well, LittleBigPlanet is more of an example of rearranging chairs on the deck, right?

CN: It's pretty robust.

MR: This is the real thing. You can't import your own models in LittleBigPlanet. You can't write script code in LittleBigPlanet.

BS: I think it's kind of like baking the stuff so that it's proper for release. Is there going to be any kind of...

MR: We have nothing to do with that process. Users do that themselves. It's user-created content. This is amazing! It's a little tough to get your head around. We don't know how deep people will take it, or how players will embrace it. They could do lots of things or littler things. We're going to encourage it, because we're going to create a mod contest. We're basically going to throw money at people to take a chance at it.

CN: You're saying that Sony understands and they're really into it. This isn't going to be happening down the road on the 360 version, will it? Or can it?

MR: We'd like to. That's one of the challenges in figuring out how to bring this game to the 360. Right now, Xbox Live is a closed system, so when we finish the PC and the PS3 one and maybe take a little break for Thanksgiving and Christmas, we will sit down with Microsoft and have a dialogue with them and say, "Here is what we want to do. How can we do it?" They may or may not embrace it. We don't know. That's why we've made the game for the PlayStation 3 first, because we knew exactly what the boundaries were going to be.

BS: I feel in a way like the PlayStation 3 -- in terms of downloads -- is kind of like the Wild West. Since they haven't set up a specific structure, it's "every man for himself," in a way.

MR: That's what user-created content is. I'm always shocked when I talk to media, and it's like, do you want to censor people? I know it sounds incredulous to say that, but that's kind of what I hear you say.

CN: I never came from a PC gaming background, so that sounds totally weird.

MR: "Why aren't they putting chains on people?!" Why do you want that?

BS: It's not like that with YouTube.

MR: When YouTube finds questionable content, they take it down. We'll have a mechanism do that too.

CN: Well, if it's an open system, how can you take it down?

MR: We have a way to blacklist mods that do bad things.

BS: It's not that we want chains, it's just that it's so...

CN: I mean, look at all the different console systems. They've always been like that.

BS: Sony is very conservative with what they will release on their console in a package.

MR: Again, I think it's really clear. If you want to make a DVD and play it on your PlayStation 3, you can. If you want to make a DVD of whatever it is -- whatever questionable, crazy, ridiculous movie you want to make -- you can burn it on a DVD-R and go play it on your PlayStation 3. If you want to record music on an MP3 CD or a memory card or play it off your computer, you can do that now on PlayStation 3, right? If you theoretically had a Blu-ray burner, you could do the same thing with Blu-ray. If you want to have your movies or photos on the PlayStation 3, you can do that. It's your content! There's really no difference.

CN: But it's point-to-point.

MR: It's not point-to-point. They're going to let you show movies to other people in Home, for example.

CN: Yeah, but your house is locked or open as you choose.

MR: That's not that much vastly different.

CN: I don't disagree...

MR: I have to make the choice to go and download the mod.

CN: I guess I feel like console users just might not be aware of what they're getting into.

MR: At least in the beginning, the way it's going to work at launch is they're going to have to go and get it themselves, and make the choice and put it on their console. They're going to go to some website, download a mod, and make the choice to actually install it on their console.

CN: That surprises me more -- "some website." Not the fact that they're even allowing downloadable content, but the fact that it's from anywhere.

MR: It's great!

CN: Yeah, we're not being negative about it.

MR: You are!

BS: No no no, we're...

MR: I know, and I get what you're saying. It's hard to fathom the fact that, because the console business has been so tightly closed in the past...

[LynxFX]

continued....

CN: Like suing the existence out of people who tried to make games about paying licensing fees.

MR: But remember, this is content for a game for which they bought the game. You bought the game. You're entitled to run your content. It's not like you have to own Unreal Tournament 3 to play these mods. I think Sony's going to have a good Christmas this year. Games like Unreal Tournament 3 will hopefully get out the door.

CN: Yeah, will it be a Christmas with Unreal Tournament 3?

MR: Well, I hope we do. [Rein subsequently confirmed that the title will debut in December for PS3.] Regardless of that, they've got a lot of good games coming, they've dropped the price of their system, and they're embracing this kind of openness. I think this is going to work out positively for them in the long run.

BS: I think there's been some kind of message shift from some companies recently, like Rockstar for instance. Manhunt 2 came out, and some Russian kid figured out how to hack it to get unblur some of the censored content and make it normal again. In the past, they would deny that that ever existed. Now they're saying, "Yes, someone did that." It seems like there's a different attitude forming toward user-created content, where people are realizing, "Yes, this is users!" and claim responsibility for users. Is that...

MR: Of course. Companies themselves... with pens and pencils, what you write or draw with those pens and pencils they have no control over that.

CN: Senators believe in the whole-hearted necessity and usability of pens and pencils.

MR: And they should, and they can't believe in censorship.

CN: But they do!

BS: That situation's pretty rough. Those folks don't understand the industry, for one thing, and also..."If it exists in a game or can be done with a game, it's the responsibility of the people that made that originally."

MR: Well, that's silly.

BS: I agree.

CN: I think we all agree, but right now...

MR: They might as well go after companies that sell paint, because some people make objectionable paintings, as opposed to the people who make...

BS: And they used to! I was going to ask, what would you think about someone selling a mod?

MR: The end-user license agreement for the game...

BS: Ah, there we go. Makes sense.

MR: And the law. The fact that it's our IP.

BS: Did people used to sell CounterStrike before it was a proper Half-Life mod?

MR: No.

BS: Okay.

MR: We haven't run into any problems like that. People are pretty respectful. They know they're using our tools, and they've read the end-user license agreement when they installed that says, "You can't use our tools for commercial purposes." But while we say that, we would very much like to have the ability, down the road, to sell mods. That's something we're actually working on behind the scenes.

We could set up a store where users who create mods have a way to monetize them down the road. We think that's definitely a good goal to have. We're looking into that. That's not some new revelation, but we think that is a good thing for us down the road, but in a controlled way, so that we get some reward for the fact that they're using our technology.

BS: So if somebody wanted to be incredibly insane and try and create a racing game using the hoverboard or something like that, that would be...

MR: Well, as long as they make it as a mod and give it away for free, that's fantastic. We love it. And then if they want to sell it, they should just come and talk to us. Red Orchestra's a perfect example. It's out there being sold on Steam and at retail, and it was a mod. We embrace that. There's others that we would have happily done the same thing with. Some of the others that are in the contest actually have licenses and publishers doing it, so you'll see some events on our retail service. But there's nothing wrong with that. It's fabulous.

Also some more insight into HOME:

CN: Speaking of Home, have you talked to Sony about any of the limitations of your stuff in Home, or are you theorizing that Home stuff will be coming down the road because Home's going to be big?

MR: We're planning that you'll be able to get a party together in Home and then file into the game from an Unreal space. Home's pretty cool, so we're planning to do that. That'll make it easy for... what I like about that is that you'll be able to form without us having to build a party system. It won't be as detailed as a real party system, but the idea is that we could all meet up in a room and go together in the game.

I think it's really smart that eventually if everybody does that, each company doesn't have to develop its own way to all meet up somewhere and all go into a game. I think that's a very smart way to do it, and I kind of wish Xbox 360 would do that, and I'm hoping that they will at some point. In other words, all these games have these different systems for getting together and then traveling into the games together or playing as teams or whatever. I expect that to be a dashboard functionality at some point in the future for the Xbox 360, and I think Sony's already thinking that way with Home.

BS: That's interesting, because in a way, the 360 has a slightly more streamlined process in at least finding and meeting your friends and that sort of thing. But I guess it's true that within each game, you have...

MR: Well, Halo's got a completely custom system for that. It's not something to do with Xbox Live. It's their own system for that. That will be a great feature to have on the service. That's the kind of thing that down the road if they want to attract a lot more subscribers to Games for Windows Live -- again, that's the kind of service that people pay money for. They are paying money for it on Xbox Live, and they could pay money for it on Windows. That's the job of the operating system company, which in the Xbox 360's case is Microsoft. I think to build those things is the kind of stuff to make it easy for games to provide that functionality.

BS: Some of the PS3 stuff seems more bolted-on, earlier on. It's funny, it sounds like it's going to be more streamlined than it is now.

MR: I think it's pretty smart what they're doing with Home -- the idea that you can go into Home and get a group of guys together and saddle into the game. I think that's smart, and I think more and more companies making games for the PlayStation 3 Network will adopt that, because it's hard and painful and difficult to write, and why [do it] if the operating system is going to group these eight people together or however many people it is and just give them to you, why not just take it? That's a good thing.

That's how things have worked on the PC for a long time. Years ago, there were things like GameSpy and Xfire, and they all worked that way. Group a bunch of people and send them all to the same server. It makes your life easier as a developer, not having to build that functionality, and it takes a console to make that level of functionality the way Xbox Live has done things more consistently across multiple games.

BS: I didn't really realize, I guess, that Sony was actually building that capability in.

MR: It's one of the great features of Home.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

That was a great interview! I really enjoyed it, Lynx! Thanks

[LynxFX]

Thought more people would be interested in this. Perhaps it is too long?

Short version:

-PS3's open platform is why we are releasing UT3 on the PS3 first.
-Users can create whatever they want for UT3, mods, models, maps, scripts etc just like on the PC and give it away for free.
-Possible future ways to sell your mod.
-Users have access to all the same tools as the devs did for creating the actual game.
-All PC mods will work on the PS3 version.
-Custom rooms and party system in HOME.
-The interviewers were complete tools.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by LynxFX

-The interviewers were complete tools.

They seriously tried the guy's patience in several places. I was surprised they printed the full interview, they way they seemed to behave in it.

And I still can't find out whether the PS3 version runs at 30fps or 60fps. A few people writing previews say "very smooth" but that's about it. Ah well, 11 days left ...

[Shin-Ra]

They've locked it down at 30fps so it's consistent across the whole game. They probably could have had it running at 60 on smaller maps with a lower draw distance or enclosed sections of larger maps.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Shin-Ra

They've locked it down at 30fps so it's consistent across the whole game. They probably could have had it running at 60 on smaller maps with a lower draw distance or enclosed sections of larger maps.

Ok thanks for the info. A shame but doubtless the game will still be great.

[jkwest]

Yeah....with locking at 30 fps, at least we don't have to play against PC opponents...they would be running circles around us.

The game will still be fabulous.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

I wonder if they are using more than 1 or 2 SPEs, when running this game on the PS3.

[stockstar1138]

how easy is this going to be for an avg. consumer to make user geneated content?

[heathward]

Originally Posted by LynxFX

Seems like these two guys really don't understand what has been happening in PC gaming for the past decade.

no kidding. did these morons just recently have eyes put on their heads? mod making has been a big hit for the unreal series since day one. yes, we have all seen some dirty maps or vulgar writing on the wall...but my god...why do they act like it will be the end of the world? to me it seems like they are complete XBox lovers and trying to rain on the UT3 PS3 parade. trying to find any angle to criticize this marriage between PC and Sony's console.

[LynxFX]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

how easy is this going to be for an avg. consumer to make user geneated content?

The avg consumer, probably not easy at all to make the content. To download and play other's content, should be a piece of cake. If you have the skill and the patience to learn the tools, pretty much anyone could make some content but this is mostly aimed at the hardcores. The bonus is that everyone gets to reap the benefits of a few dedicated gamers.

trying to find any angle to criticize this marriage between PC and Sony's console.

Yeah, even before they got to the PS3 aspect they were trying to slam or group together all content made on the Unreal engine. It is like they would ask a question, Epic would answer, and they would say 'no, the real answer we were looking for was....' then they go and repeat the question and get back the same answer from Epic.

Overall I just really appreciated the genuine excitement Mark had for the game and PS3 possibilities. I wasn't planning on picking up UT3 on the PS3 but this makes me want to get it.

[Icemage]

I'll chime in here and say that my primary reason for buying UT3 on both platforms was to specifically create PS3 game modifications. If Mark Rein seems a bit exasperated in the interview, it's because the questions are no-brainers (at least to those of us who are hardcore into game modification).

Mark my words, this is going to be VERY exciting. I can't wait to actually try some stuff on the PS3 - and with the game hopefully shipping on Dec. 11th, it won't be too long before that actually happens.

EDIT:

In response to the question above about how "easy" it is to create new content for any game: I'll just say that it takes a lot of ingenuity and elbow grease, and a lot of dedication. You need some real talent at artwork and/or programming, and you have to cultivate it by practicing and experimentation. So no, the "average user" won't be able to do very much on UT3's editor. This isn't LittleBigPlanet - but the tools are much more powerful than most people imagine.

A lot of people think that the hardest part to making games is coming up with good ideas and gameplay. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Good ideas are a dime a dozen; there's an ocean of amazing game ideas that anyone can come up with. What's rare is for someone to have the combination of enthusiasm, natural talent, patience, available time, and resources combined to actually turn the ideas in their head into reality. Without these prerequisites, the best idea in the world just remains that: an idea.