Deep Color Understanding

[JimShaw]

I am new to the forum but I have been reading for sometime collecting great info.

I have been deciding which Blu-Ray player to purchase and one thing has been confusing to me. Marantz 8002 and Denon 3808 says their deep color is a 36 bit where as Pioneer 05 and 51 advertises theirs as a 12 bit.

Are these apples to apples and the Marantz and the Denon much better or am I confusing the terminology used by the manufacturers?

Thanks for any understanding


Mod note

see post below for 12bit = 36bit explanation etc

[clyon]

36 bits you get much more colors BUT you must have a 36 bit tv to go with it.
More colors give you more realistic picture.


anyone know the color bit of BD's???

[JimShaw]

I thank you for the info.

Right now I do not have a HDTV but will in the future. Would it be better to purchase a 36 bit over a 12 bit getting ready for the future? Or is a 36 bit TV so rare it would be a waste?

[Deciazulado]

I would think 36 bit = 12 bit by the 3 colors RGB

8 bit is 256 levels for each color, 10 bit is 1024 levels for each color and so forth.


So 8 bit = 24 bit
10 bit = 30 bit
12 bit = 36 bit
16 bit = 48 bit

as in

8 bit (256 b/w levels) = 8 x RGB = 24 bits

10 bits (1024 b/w levels) = 8 x RGB = 30 bits

12 bits (4096 b/w levels) = 8 x RGB = 36 bits

etc

btw 8-bit (24-bit) video since it has black at level 16 and white at level 235, instead of at level 0 and level 255 on computer images, is actually more like 7.78 bits (220 levels) within that range

[JimShaw]

I see.

12 bit and 36 bit is the same. It all depends how it is marketed

[crackinhedz]

until more sources start using Deep Color capabilities, its really a non-issue.

HD Camcorders are the only source for Deep color, that I know of.

[callas01]

Sony tv's uses a 10 bit processor and panel, samsung tv's uses a 16 bit processor and panel, toshiba tv's uses an 8 bit panel and 14 bit processor (these are all LCD's)

it would be safe to say that Sony's blu-ray player probably outputs 10 bits, I would guess that most would be between 8 & 12 bits. As long as you see xv YCC, or xv Color, or Deep Color, it would be a safe Blu-ray player to pick up, and receivers that say they support it I read that the receiver can process the deep color and pass it through to the HDTV.

All that said, when I read up about it, you need to make sure that the HDTV, Blu-ray player and AV Receiver all support xv color. But Cnet.com did say something about until blu-ray movies support deep color, it is just an added feature that will be under utilized.

[callas01]

FYI from Feb 2007

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/207gear/


xvYCC (also known as IEC 61966-2-4) expands the color-gamut triangle but does so as a standard across the board. This gives access to deeper colors—a redder red, if you will—for content providers and all the way down to you at home. Interestingly, xvYCC doesn't do this by changing the Rec.709 primaries. Instead, it uses those primaries as reference points for a whole lot of other math. Simply, it allows for more room around the current RGB triangle.

Deep Color increases the number of bits available for transmission for each channel. This means that there are more shades available for a TV to mix together. So, for example, a TV that accepts the new standard in 12-bit form can mix together any one of 4,096 shades (levels of brightness) of each primary color for 68.7 billion possible colors (4,096 red x 4,096 green x 4,096 blue = 68,719,476,736 colors). HDMI 1.2 could only transfer 8 bits per channel. So, there were only 256 shades of each color to choose from and fewer colors overall (256 x 256 x 256 = 16.7 million). These different shades help decrease artifacts (like color banding) and increase color fidelity. The visible picture-quality increase from 8 bits per channel to 10 or even 16 (in its highest 1.3 form) has been and is still being debated, but having the ability to transmit xvYCC and Deep Color sure can't hurt. Together, they mean that there will be more and better colors for future displays.

But There's a Catch
In order to make for a wider color gamut and a higher bit depth for even more realistic-looking displays (capable of creating a wider range of colors), every step in the chain needs to do that exact thing, as well. If the camera can only do Rec.709, it won't matter that your TV can do more than that, because that extra color isn't in the source (which is, uh, the situation we have now). If the camera can do xvYCC but the medium (say, HDTV broadcasts) can't, again, it won't matter that your TV can do it. In other words, for you to see the new colors, material will have to be shot, transferred, encoded, and mastered in xvYCC and Deep Color. Sure, you could fake the wider color gamut at the mastering stage, but this won't be true extra color.

Most importantly, the source itself (say, some future HD DVD or Blu-ray player) will have to be able to output the extra color (via HDMI 1.3 or greater) to get to your TV, which also has to be xvYCC and Deep Color capable. If any step doesn't have these, then you won't get the benefit.

With the fact that some TVs don't have enough bits to do the current standard correctly, while some have widely inaccurate color points, even this end of the chain isn't a given. It's a much bigger issue than just having the capability on the cable, isn't it?

A Step (All Is Not Lost)
The PlayStation 3 and PC create their own universe, so to speak, so they can do Deep Color now (if so enabled). Apparently, some camcorders will be coming to the market soon that can do xvYCC. So steps are being made to get content. As you can imagine, film itself isn't bound by these standards. Only the mastering is. So, creating the content isn't a huge obstacle. The issue is getting that content to the consumer.

Should I Throw Out My TV?
Just because it's in the HDMI spec doesn't mean you'll be seeing it fully implemented any time soon. Sony showed a prototype LCD panel at CEATEC in October that was xvYCC compliant. As you've read, such a TV is only one part of the equation and, in reality, is the easiest part (when and if it ever ships). We'll need source material—and a source to output it—that can also do xvYCC and Deep Color (other than just a PC, PS3, or camcorder). Apparently, now that there is a way to transfer it, studios and manufacturers are both getting more interested in xvYCC and Deep Color. So, in other words, these are great ideas with lots of promise that we may see, but not any time soon.

[JimShaw]

I thank each one you for all your help. I now have an understanding.

[Flatnate]

Yup! I'm pulling this thread back from the dead!

So I'm reading Home Theater magazine from two months ago, and it had the write up on the LED Sony panel with Triluminos technology (I may have spelled that wrong sorry). Long story short is they said the TV, can display more colors but is generally confined by Rec 709. So Yaay... kind of.

I continue on to grey side note box...

They mention possibility of xvYCC back from the dead on some upcoming titles?!! Whaa!? Anyone heard other grumblings of this? This would be cool if it happens. Is Deepcolor not completely dead?

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Yup! I'm pulling this thread back from the dead!

So I'm reading Home Theater magazine from two months ago, and it had the write up on the LED Sony panel with Triluminos technology (I may have spelled that wrong sorry). Long story short is they said the TV, can display more colors but is generally confined by Rec 709. So Yaay... kind of.

I continue on to grey side note box...

They mention possibility of xvYCC back from the dead on some upcoming titles?!! Whaa!? Anyone heard other grumblings of this? This would be cool if it happens. Is Deepcolor not completely dead?

Sony's 'Mastered in 4K' line are all encoded with xvYCC. This just provides a wider gamut and differs from Deep Colour.

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Sony's 'Mastered in 4K' line are all encoded with xvYCC. This just provides a wider gamut and differs from Deep Colour.

Got it, didn't mean to confuse the two. That said is anyone with a display capable of an expanded color gamut able to enjoy xvYCC, assuming your player is passing it along. Or, if your display is calibrated to Rec 709, you're just out of luck? Specifically, do you need say a Triluminos LED set to enjoy this, or are there other products out there that can take advantage of this. Also, can anyone attest to a perceivable difference in person then?

[Flatnate]

I found this to be the most helpful (if not overly in dpeth) write up on xvYCC yet:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technol...01.html#block1

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Got it, didn't mean to confuse the two. That said is anyone with a display capable of an expanded color gamut able to enjoy xvYCC, assuming your player is passing it along. Or, if your display is calibrated to Rec 709, you're just out of luck? Specifically, do you need say a Triluminos LED set to enjoy this, or are there other products out there that can take advantage of this. Also, can anyone attest to a perceivable difference in person then?

Yes all the equipment in the chain needs to support xvYCC. That includes player, receiver and display/projector. Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer and others do support xvYCC, so you do not need all Sony gear to take advantage of it. As along as your outputting one of the YCC colour spaces, your good to go.

As for Rec. 709, if your set is calibrated to this, then there is no problem with displaying xvYCC content, as the values that Rec. 709 supports are the same, but the extended colour values supported, vary between displays. This is why built into HDMI 1.3 and above, the supported range is negotiated, but there is no standard for xvYCC calibration.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

I found this to be the most helpful (if not overly in dpeth) write up on xvYCC yet:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technol...01.html#block1

Yeah, that is a good write up with regards to xvYCC.

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Yeah, that is a good write up with regards to xvYCC.

Thanks! Yeah, now I'm trying to figure out if everything in my chain supports it. I've been surfing AVS Forum for info on my Pioneer BDP-51FD player, my Onkyo PR-SC5508 is running pass through mode, and then my JVC RS20. I think there is hope that my current system is capable of this.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Thanks! Yeah, now I'm trying to figure out if everything in my chain supports it. I've been surfing AVS Forum for info on my Pioneer BDP-51FD player, my Onkyo PR-SC5508 is running pass through mode, and then my JVC RS20. I think there is hope that my current system is capable of this.

No problem. Just had a look at your 51FD and I do not think it supports xvYCC, it does support Deep Colour at 36-bit. Your Onkyo supports it. As for your PJ, I cannot find any information with regards to xvYCC support. Have a look at the manual if there is any mention of it, or if the x.v.Colour logo is on the box.

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

No problem. Just had a look at your 51FD and I do not think it supports xvYCC, it does support Deep Colour at 36-bit. Your Onkyo supports it. As for your PJ, I cannot find any information with regards to xvYCC support. Have a look at the manual if there is any mention of it, or if the x.v.Colour logo is on the box.

Yeah there is some grumbling over on AVS abuot my player supporting xvYCC on AVCHD after firmware 1.71, but I'm not seeing anything definitive about support off of Blu-Ray disc over there yet. One guy hinted at it, but who knows. I have to wonder if the Oppo players support it.

Also the more I read the more I believe there is a lot of mixing up of DeepColor and xvYCC. The more I read the more its apparent that deep color was made to reduce color banding, rather than expanding the color gamut. So in a way Deep Color is something that can help xvYCC. But Deep Color sure recieved more marketing hype.

Now, my JVC is an interesting animal as it was the top of the line LCOS technology for 2009. JVC had x.v.color on some camcorders at the time but again?? So still digging on that one as well.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Yeah there is some grumbling over on AVS abuot my player supporting xvYCC on AVCHD after firmware 1.71, but I'm not seeing anything definitive about support off of Blu-Ray disc over there yet. One guy hinted at it, but who knows. I have to wonder if the Oppo players support it.

Also the more I read the more I believe there is a lot of mixing up of DeepColor and xvYCC. The more I read the more its apparent that deep color was made to reduce color banding, rather than expanding the color gamut. So in a way Deep Color is something that can help xvYCC. But Deep Color sure recieved more marketing hype.

Now, my JVC is an interesting animal as it was the top of the line LCOS technology for 2009. JVC had x.v.color on some camcorders at the time but again?? So still digging on that one as well.

That's interesting with regard to xvYCC support from a firmware update. Most documentation only relates to xvYCC being supported for AVCHD, but it often also applies to BDMV, mainly because the Blu-ray spec doesn't actually support extended gamut, but Blu-ray movies can be encoded with it.

Oppo players do not support xvYCC. I asked JohnAV over in the Oppo section previously. That includes the latest 103 and 105 models aswell.

And yes you are correct with regards to the difference between Deep Colour and x.v.Colour.

[Flatnate]

I dunno if he is on here much, but back in May, Josh Zyber posted over in AVS Forum that

All initial reports say that the "expanded color" option is not standard xvYCC. It's a proprietary Sony format that only works properly if the disc is played in a specially-equipped Sony Blu-ray player connected to a Sony 4k display. Enabling the xvYCC options on other Blu-ray players or displays will result in washed out colors

If he or anyone else is on here that is in the know please post, I'm hoping someone could elaborate on this aspect more as well.