Melancholia Blu-Ray: American/International releases suffer from 24p-slowdown

[hajiketobu]

It is safe to say that the film was shot and mastered, just like Antichrist, with 25fps. It was then printed on 35mm film and distributed (-> 24fps) as needed for the projectors. The official website states a runtime of 130min and a framerate of 25. In most countries all over the world the Blu-Ray was released with 1080/24p due to no support of 25p in the Blu-Ray specifications and incompatibility with many American hardware devices due to hardware limitations. In Finland and Switzerland, possibly also Sweden, Norway, Denmark and other countries, the Blu-Ray was released with 1080/50i.
I own both the 1080/24p and the 1080/50i transfer and, after some testing, I can tell you that the American/International transfer release is slowed down and the pitch is different. The American/International transfer has a runtime of 136min. The Nordic transfer has a runtime of 130min, like the runtime stated on the official website.

There is an easy way to find out which version is the correct one: By comparing the music of the "Prologue" audio. If you compare the 24p transfer version with the Music CD Version of the Prologue track on the OST and then with the 50i transfer version, you will notice that the Music CD has exactly the same pitch and speed like the 1080/50i transfer.

Another myth that needs to be cleared is the interlacing. Both Antichrist and Melancholia are stored progressively with 25p on the Blu-Ray Disc not 50i. The 50i is just a "container" to trick the Blu-Ray Player and make it take 25p. This is done with some cheating, or probably PsF (Progressive segmented Frame or Progressive Frame segmenting) a way to store progressive video in an interlaced format with 2:2 pulldown. It is even more likely that the film is stored 25p and just flagged 50i with a 2:2 pulldown, much like 60i DVD's contain 23,976 footage flagged with an 2:3 pulldown. Not sure how it is achieved in the case of Melancholia, but the film is in any case progressively stored and recognized as 25fps by for example mediainfo.

But yeah, anyway, it's basically a shame how this film was released, since most of the world watches a slowed down version with the wrong framerate, much like in PAL/NTSC times were people had to watch films in 25/30p instead of the original 24p. But here we are in 2014 with the same problem. Disgusting isn't it? It also baffles me that this topic is not much talked about and just condoned. I'm a purist and I'd like to own a movie in its original representation and not some compromised version. I get the same twitching when I see studios release movies on 25GB single layer Blu-Rays instead of 50GB

Another thing I am certain of: Lars von Trier doesn't give a crap about all this, let alone framerate

[HD Goofnut]

Are you really going to notice a difference of 1 fps?

[hajiketobu]

Yes, the movie is 6 minute longer with one fps less and has a different pitch, preferably noticeable in musical scenes (The Prologue). If you don't know the original, you won't notice that something is odd.

This is like the reverse technique of good old pal dvd speed-up from 24 to 25 fps. I remember finding this always really annoying since some characters in certain movies had some kind of Mickey Mouse pitch. Really annoying. Now in this case we have the opposite: everything is lower, longer and deeper, which matches the theme of the movie so

[jwerk]

Originally Posted by hajiketobu

Yes, the movie is 6 minute longer with one fps less

Which means I get 6 more minutes of a movie I love

[Cvalda]

Originally Posted by hajiketobu

Another myth that needs to be cleared is the interlacing. Both Antichrist and Melancholia are stored progressively with 25p on the Blu-Ray Disc not 50i. The 50i is just a "container" to trick the Blu-Ray Player and make it take 25p. This is done with some cheating, or probably PsF (Progressive segmented Frame or Progressive Frame segmenting) a way to store progressive video in an interlaced format with 2:2 pulldown. It is even more likely that the film is stored 25p and just flagged 50i with a 2:2 pulldown, much like 60i DVD's contain 23,976 footage flagged with an 2:3 pulldown. Not sure how it is achieved in the case of Melancholia, but the film is in any case progressively stored and recognized as 25fps by for example mediainfo.

25i originally or not, there's no doubt that the Criterion 24p release of Antichrist looks better than its interlaced international releases. More detailed and stable.

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Are you really going to notice a difference of 1 fps?

I take it you have never played a PAL disc, have you?

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by jwerk

Which means I get 6 more minutes of a movie I love

6 more minutes of misery

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

I take it you have never played a PAL disc, have you?

Well, sure but the difference there is 50fps versus 24fps.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Well, sure but the difference there is 50fps versus 24fps.

Really?

[Tech-UK]

This is a strange one. It seems to of been shot at 1080p25, that is 25fps progressive.

I own the UK disc, (scanning it now as we speak, so will update), but as you say, you probably wouldn't notice it unless one has another source to compare it to.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Well, sure but the difference there is 50fps versus 24fps.

Goof you're getting mixed up.

50Hz = 25fps
60Hz = 30fps

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Well, sure but the difference there is 50fps versus 24fps.

Well, in film terms is actually 25 vs 24, so you get some 4% speed increase and it's certainly very noticeable to human ears.

[hajiketobu]

Originally Posted by Cvalda

25i originally or not, there's no doubt that the Criterion 24p release of Antichrist looks better than its interlaced international releases. More detailed and stable.

that's not true, or are you talking about that shitty uk release? that had only half the bitrate of the other european releases and the criterion release.
the european releases except the uk release are visually and bitrate-wise the same the criterion release. you can look it up here: dvdbeaver

oh and btw it's stored as 25p not 25i, i thought i explained this
the criterion is still an inferior release, because it does not feature the original representation of the film and it lacks a lot of bonus features found on the european release. it may even suffer from slowdown, but i don't know about that since i don't have the criterion edition of antichrist. it may also be possible that it was newly mastered (this was heavily discussed in the past) in 24p and not slowed down, unlike Melancholia which is indeed slowed down.

[Herry Dunston]

I knew there was a pitch problem for both these films, but thanks for explaining WHY this happened. Kinda wish Trier knew a little better about taking the 25-frames approach.

[hajiketobu]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

This is a strange one. It seems to of been shot at 1080p25, that is 25fps progressive.

1080i50 is 25fps interlaced so you are technically losing half the resolution.

In this case losing 1fps, you are still maintaining resolution, but this has created a pitch issue.

I own the UK disc, (scanning it now as we speak, so will update), but as you say, you probably wouldn't notice it unless one has another source to compare it to.

do that! ok, but just for clarification the films (both antichrist and melancholia) were not shot in 50i, they were shot in 25p. 1080/50i is a format for television broadcasts, just like 1080/60i and then there is also the 1440x1080 format. But film cameras, in europe at least, can also shoot at 25 and 50 fps in full hd/4k/8k. the 1080/50i interlacing and the PsF interlacing for 1920x1080/25p are two different things. This trick is only needed because the Blu-Ray specifications don't allow 1080/25p.

"With PsF, a progressive frame is divided into two segments, with the odd lines in one segment and the even lines in the other segment. Technically, the segments are equivalent to interlaced fields, but unlike native interlaced video, there is no motion between the two fields that make up the video frame: both fields represent the same instant in time. This technique allows for a progressive picture to be processed through the same electronic circuitry that is used to store, process and route interlaced video." -[Progressive Frame Segmentation]

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by hajiketobu

do that! ok, but just for clarification the films (both antichrist and melancholia) were not shot in 50i, they were shot in 25p. 1080/50i is a format for television broadcasts, just like 1080/60i and then there is also the 1440x1080 format. But film cameras, in europe at least, can also shoot at 25 and 50 fps in full hd/4k/8k. the 1080/50i interlacing and the PsF interlacing for 1920x1080/25p are two different things. This trick is only needed because the Blu-Ray specifications don't allow 1080/25p.

"With PsF, a progressive frame is divided into two segments, with the odd lines in one segment and the even lines in the other segment. Technically, the segments are equivalent to interlaced fields, but unlike native interlaced video, there is no motion between the two fields that make up the video frame: both fields represent the same instant in time. This technique allows for a progressive picture to be processed through the same electronic circuitry that is used to store, process and route interlaced video." -[Progressive Frame Segmentation]

Yep.

I did edit my post before you posted.

Was getting confused.

[Tech-UK]

UK release is 1080p23.976

[hanshotfirst1138]

It isn't possible to run Blu at anything above 24 FPS, is it? I assume it was shot with PAL cameras? Why'd Europe stay with 25 FPS after digital changeover? I know their TV production infrastructure was largely built that way, but once things went digital, did they have different stands than 720p/1080i?

[BuckNaked2k]

My player (Oppo 93) displays the file at 1080/25 with a run time of 2:10. I thought Blu-ray was supposed to fix all this?

[Zot!]

Right, so I did bring this up back when Antichrist came out, since I thought it curious. The answers that I cobbled together seems to be that the reason Zentropa produces these films in 25fps is because they don't want to update their equipment, and possibly wish to accommodate European TV broadcast standard. The 24fps versions do seem to be fairly "director-approved" however, as that is still most likely what was presented in film festivals (Cannes) and any place that screened the film on film (also the Criterion BD has his approval). Still there doesn't seem to be any excuse for not adjusting the pitch. That should be easily done these days with software. Anybody want to check Antichrist? Some of the classical music could be checked for pitch. At least unlike DVDs, there should be no interlacing, just speed-up.