How important is 10-bit color, really?

[ADWyatt]

The 2014 Holiday shopping season may be a good time to purchase a 4k TV, for two reasons. First, thanks to companies like Vizio, prices of this year's units have started to decline. Secondly, manufacturers may be trying to make room for the release of new models. CES 2015 is only a little more than two months away as of this post, and there may be sufficient advances in next-gen 4k TVs that many consumers may decide not to buy this year's inventory after seeing the new prototypes in January.

At least so far as I'm aware, after speaking to technicians for Sony, Samsung and Toshiba it appears that most TVs this year employ an 8-bit color processor. (It appears that a notable exception is Vizio, but that company no longer supports 3D.) We all know that when 4k Blu-ray players are released, hopefully by the 2015 Holiday shopping season, they will employ 10-bit color processing. My understanding, though, is that TVs must have 10-bit processing power to take advantage of these players. If I'm right, that leaves me to ask just how much of an improvement 10-bit will be over 8-bit. Will the difference be night-and-day, or can we live with limitations for a few years?

Here's why I'm asking: My guess is that a TV such as Sony's 65" 850 might sell for as low as $2,500 this Holiday season. It doesn't have local dimming or 10-bit, but the overall picture is very good, and at that price it would be an attractive buy. I could keep the TV for three years, after which I believe OLED would be affordable and refined. I could accept the sell-off price of the Sony.

This sounds like a plan, but I have to wonder if the quality of next year's 4k TVs, with 10-bit processing and full backlighting improvements, will make me regret buying this year. I certainly would enjoy hearing opinions from the informed members of this forum.
Thanks in advance for all advice and opinions you may care to give.

[Suntory_Times]

I really think UHD (unless you are planning to game at such a resolution and have the hardware to) will not be worth it for a few years. This years uhd sets will not meet the standards and next years may not either (the standards are still not known). Once they do release you will be looking at first gen attempts at that standard and large improvements are nearly always seen in the first few cycles of such things.

How important is 10 bit color, hard to say as cinemas apparently get both 8 bit and 10 bit dcp's yet I never notice a difference. I'm guessing unless a pro calibration it will likely be rather minor (and with one it will still be minor but maybe slightly less so). But this is a guess.

[revgen]

10-bit color helps to eliminate banding without having to use dithering.

[Robert Zohn]

All true, but no TV can take advantage of a 10 bit panel as no consumer content is encoded with 10 bit information.

10 bit and even higher bit rate panels will be needed as Ultra HD evolves into larger color pallets, like DCI or rec. 2020.

Additionally, the reason 10 bit panels will reduce banding is because we'll finally see more steps of gradation, 8 bit panels can produce 256 shades, 10 bit displays can deliver 1024 steps. 10 bit panels are also capable of displaying a larger color space.

-Robert

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ADWyatt

How important is 10-bit color, really?

Greater than 8bit encoded content, is the single most important thing you could wish for in regards to 4K Blu-ray - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ed#post9967092

It is especially crucial for HDR. HEVC already has native support for HDR, the challenge (which is doable) is to build gear which can decode HEVC HDR extensions.

[RWetmore]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

All true, but no TV can take advantage of a 10 bit panel as no consumer content is encoded with 10 bit information.

10 bit and even higher bit rate panels will be needed as Ultra HD evolves into larger color pallets, like DCI or rec. 2020.

Additionally, the reason 10 bit panels will reduce banding is because we'll finally see more steps of gradation, 8 bit panels can produce 256 shades, 10 bit displays can deliver 1024 steps. 10 bit panels are also capable of displaying a larger color space.

-Robert

Yeah, though I tend to think 10 bits is not quite sufficient for rec. 2020 and 12 bits is really needed; however, I sense the BD association is not going to give us more than 10 bit for UHD Blu-ray. We'll see though I guess.

Do you have any insider info on this? Any chance we might get 12 bits?

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by RWetmore

Yeah, though I tend to think 10 bits is not quite sufficient for rec. 2020 and 12 bits is really needed; however, I sense the BD association is not going to give us more than 10 bit for UHD Blu-ray. We'll see though I guess.

Do you have any insider info on this? Any chance we might get 12 bits?

rec 2020 is referred in two ways. rec 2020 is the entire ITU specifications for Ultra HD and it also refers to and is used independently in regard to the expanded color space.

Myself and many experts in greater power than me are lobbying for P3 aka DCI color space, which although a slightly smaller color pallet it would fit with less compression in a 10bit channel. DCI also makes sense as we have tons of content ready to go as it has been the color grade standard for Hollywood movies whereas rec. 2020 color would need to be created from scratch.

Let's all get behind P3, the enhanced larger color pallet we can far more easily sustain vs. the proposed rec 2020.

-Robert

[RWetmore]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

rec 2020 is referred in two ways. rec 2020 is the entire ITU specifications for Ultra HD and it also refers to and is used independently in regard to the expanded color space.

Myself and many experts in greater power than me are lobbying for P3 aka DCI color space, which although a slightly smaller color pallet it would fit with less compression in a 10bit channel. DCI also makes sense as we have tons of content ready to go as it has been the color grade standard for Hollywood movies whereas rec. 2020 color would need to be created from scratch.

Let's all get behind P3, the enhanced larger color pallet we can far more easily sustain vs. the proposed rec 2020.

I don't doubt DCI is more easily doable, but it looks only marginally bigger than rec. 709, where as rec. 2020 is a huge expansion, especially in the greens:

http://www.heavyoptical.com.hk/image...rRec2020_s.jpg

While I would prefer rec. 2020 for this reason as well as for future proofing, I'm skeptical that it can be done properly with only 10 bits and suspect 12 bits is needed for such a large gamut. If 10 bits is the max they are going to go with (for whatever reason or reasons), then you may very well be right that DCI is the better way to go.

I would think they are fairly close to finalizing these standards, as the industry greatly needs such established standards ASAP so the TVs can be manufactured to meet the full UHD specs. Any insider knowledge as to how close they are to deciding? I expect the finalized standards to come early in the year -- if not at CES.

A little off topic, but any word on the max video bit rate they are going to go with for UHD Blu-ray? For HFR I hope it's at least 100 mbps (and preferably 120 mbps) and for regular frame rate at least 60 mbps (and preferably 80mbps). Do you have any views or opinions on how much video bit rate is needed for equivalent to regular HD Blu-ray quality in UHD?

[Robert Zohn]

I'm expecting to learn more about 4K BD specs with some of my CES meetings and I'll report back what I learn.

-Robert

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'm expecting to learn more about 4K BD specs with some of my CES meetings and I'll report back what I learn.

-Robert

Last time, by refraining from commenting, we kindly overlooked this, when the fact of the matter is, it’s a 30 incher.

Please, for this trade show, and I mean no disrespect, try to get the specification reporting correct if you are allowed access to the info.

[AudioWarrior]

I'd say, wanna give people and broadcast companies a reason to upgrade to 4k/8k? 12-bit rec. 2020.

Wanna go the cheap and safe route? 10-bit DCI color spec....

[RWetmore]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'm expecting to learn more about 4K BD specs with some of my CES meetings and I'll report back what I learn.

-Robert

Thanks.

[Robert Zohn]

Here's my assumptions on the upcoming 4K BD.

Now that we are seeing several 2015 TVs from Samsung. LG, Sony and Netflix 4K streaming featuring HDR and larger color pallets I expect "Ultra HD Blu-ray" will also be including HDR and enhanced color space.

I suspect we'll see several HDR formats, like Dolby and Philips as well as DCI's P3 and rec 2020 coded on the discs in the form of meta data that the new Utra HD BD players will read so they can decode and pass along the studio's mastered contrast ratio and color space.

The Ultra HD BD discs will be encoded with HEVC and the players will have HEVC decoders built-in.

One item we need to learn is what gamma will perform best with HDR and how that will vary based on which HDR system and which display we're viewing.

With 4K OLED, QDOT full array back lit locally dimmed displays, Netflix streaming 4K HDR content and BD's Ultra HD that all have the capability to employ HDR and larger color pallets we are in for a great 2015.

Now it that's not enough excitement for 2015 just think of Dolby Atmos as the icing on our Ultra HD immersive experiences.

Happy New Year to all my a/v enthusiasts!

-Robert

[RWetmore]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Here's my assumptions on the upcoming 4K BD.

Now that we are seeing several 2015 TVs from Samsung. LG, Sony and Netflix 4K streaming featuring HDR and larger color pallets I expect "Ultra HD Blu-ray" will also be including HDR and enhanced color space.

I suspect we'll see several HDR formats, like Dolby and Philips as well as DCI's P3 and rec 2020 coded on the discs in the form of meta data that the new Utra HD BD players will read so they can decode and pass along the studio's mastered contrast ratio and color space.

The Ultra HD BD discs will be encoded with HEVC and the players will have HEVC decoders built-in.

One item we need to learn is what gamma will perform best with HDR and how that will vary based on which HDR system and which display we're viewing.

With 4K OLED, QDOT full array back lit locally dimmed displays, Netflix streaming 4K HDR content and BD's Ultra HD that all have the capability to employ HDR and larger color pallets we are in for a great 2015.

Now it that's not enough excitement for 2015 just think of Dolby Atmos as the icing on our Ultra HD immersive experiences.

Happy New Year to all my a/v enthusiasts!

-Robert

Thanks for the report. I'm disappointed there is apparently no 12bit color, but I'm not at all surprised by this and 10bit is pretty much what I expected.

Any word on whether they plan to include 66GB and 100GB discs?

[Suntory_Times]

Do you really think studios are going to get behind HDR? I wouldn't think they would as they don't want to give hom an advantage over cinemas anymore then they have to and I wouldn't think cinemas would be able to do hdr.

Honestly the number of hdr possibilities just sounds like a mess that well be relegated to dbox levels of interest if they can't make it an easy experience that is for the consumer plug and play without requiring different calibrations based on which system that is being used for hdr. Also wondering if their where actual content creators getting behind this their or elsewhere, or has it just been the manufacturers?

[Robert Zohn]

@RWetmore, from what I am told 10bit and tipple layer 99GB discs.

@Suntory_Times, I agree with your comments and I'm not sure how commercial or even most home theaters will handle HDR. However, many of the home theaters we build are capable of delivering much higher luminance, but the calibrators (correctly) set them to DCI standards. I think the max we have set-up a totally light controlled black hole theater is 16fL.

Regarding the various HDR schemes and P3 DCI or rec. 2020 color my understanding is that the discs will be encoded with meta data to tell the display which color space and HDR scheme to use. Now I don't expect this to be easy to do with consumer TVs, but the TV manufacturers are showing 2015 TVs that can do HDR and at lease P3.

I meet with content creators at NAB and everyone I speak to is pushing for larger color pallet and HDR.

I'm excited to see these advancements and cautiously optimistic for the successful outcome.

-Robert

[AudioWarrior]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@RWetmore, from what I am told 10bit and tipple layer 99GB discs.

@Suntory_Times, I agree with your comments and I'm not sure how commercial or even most home theaters will handle HDR. However, many of the home theaters we build are capable of delivering much higher luminance, but the calibrators (correctly) set them to DCI standards. I think the max we have set-up a totally light controlled black hole theater is 16fL.

Regarding the various HDR schemes and P3 DCI or rec. 2020 color my understanding is that the discs will be encoded with meta data to tell the display which color space and HDR scheme to use. Now I don't expect this to be easy to do with consumer TVs, but the TV manufacturers are showing 2015 TVs that can do HDR and at lease P3.

I meet with content creators at NAB and everyone I speak to is pushing for larger color pallet and HDR.

I'm excited to see these advancements and cautiously optimistic for the successful outcome.

-Robert

A few display's coming out claim DCI or P3 color space, with another manufacture "forgot which one" claiming 80% of the rec 2020 color space.

"I think it was Samsung with their SUHD models, but I'm not sure?"

As for high frame-rate displays, the only models announced that would possibly offer 4k and a true 120hz effective refresh rate would be Seiki's Pro models with Display Link 1.3 with a release date of around 2Q15. No other models I know of can support higher frame rates.

This year will also see 80"+ model prices drop by half! Sharp will be offering a none 8k simulated 80" 4k TV for $5400, "Samsung's 85" model last year was a cool 10k." I don't think there were any 84/85" inch models announced this year? I could be wrong?

All in all it looks like a good year for Display and audio tech!

[Robert Zohn]

What's I've seen at CES that can do P3 DCI and some form of HDR are:

1. Sony's XBR-75X940C
2. Samsung's line of S UHD LCD/LEDTVs
3. LG's 4K OLED TVs
4. LG series of Color Prime LCD/LED TVs
5. Sharp's 2015 80" (no model # yet)

Regarding our comments on commercial theaters and HDR. I spoke with a few of my post and pre production friends and some other Hollywood camera suppliers and they tell me that the industry is working on a program to upgrade the high-end theaters with projectors that can produce higher luminance. These new HDR theaters can be marketed as High Dynamic Range theaters. Similar to how Dolby Atmos and IMAX is promoted.

Time will tell and it's won't be long. Maybe some announcements at the April 2015 NAB Convention.

-Robert

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by AudioWarrior

I'd say, wanna give people and broadcast companies a reason to upgrade to 4k/8k? 12-bit rec. 2020.

Wanna go the cheap and safe route? 10-bit DCI color spec....

I prefer DCI for several reasons.

- First, it currently available with thousands of Hollywood movies that are already graded for DCI so no need to create new and difficult to produce content.

- Second, for filmmakers to invest in new rec. 2020 equipment is too much of a burden as they are already considering buying HDR cameras and supporting equipment.

- Third, we already know and love what DCI color looks like as it's been in the movie theaters for many years.

- Forth, the bandwidth to deliver HDR and rec. 2020 is not reasonably possible. It's also very difficult to get displays to accurately render rec. 2020 color.

- Fifth, displays cable of delivering 12bit and what is really needed to display HDR and rec. 2020 color is more likely 16bit would be very expensive to develop and build.

I much prefer HDR and P3. Better color, higher contrast ratio and something Hollywood, the BDA, TVs and projectors can manage and much more likely to be streamed to your home.

-Robert

[Suntory_Times]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

What's I've seen at CES that can do P3 DCI and some from of HDR are:

1. Sony's XBR-75X940C
2. Samsung's line of S UHD LCD/LEDTVs
3. LG's 4K OLED TVs
4. LG series of Color Prime LCD/LED TVs
5. Sharp's 2015 80" (no model # yet)

Regarding our comments on commercial theaters and HDR. I spoke with a few of my post and pre production friends and some other Hollywood camera suppliers and they tell me that the industry is working on a program to upgrade the high-end theaters with projectors that can produce higher luminance. These new HDR theaters can be marketed as High Dynamic Range theaters. Similar to how Dolby Atmos and IMAX is promoted.

Time will tell and it's won't be long. Maybe some announcements at the April 2015 NAB Convention.

-Robert

That is interesting, I will not be holding my breath, but at least their seems to be the possibility. Thankyou for the information.