ATMOS/DTS-X: Let me keep my front wides!

[Blu-Roey]

Hi all,
My current 9.2 system using a Onkyo TX-NR3009 allows me to use my front wides. Great receiver, but it's older so now object-based nuthin'.

I'd like to upgrade receiver/processor (using emotiva amps) by the end of the year, but it seems I'll have to give up my front wides if I want to go for ATMOS/DTS-X. Unless anyone else knows otherwise?

I'm wired for overhead height speakers, and will happily add them after the new receiver
BUT HOW CAN I KEEP FRONT WIDES FOR OBJECT-BASED AUDIO PLEASE?!?!?


and Thank You.
9.2.4 please

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Blu-Roey

Hi all,
My current 9.2 system using a Onkyo TX-NR3009 allows me to use my front wides. Great receiver, but it's older so now object-based nuthin'.

I'd like to upgrade receiver/processor (using emotiva amps) by the end of the year, but it seems I'll have to give up my front wides if I want to go for ATMOS/DTS-X. Unless anyone else knows otherwise?

I'm wired for overhead height speakers, and will happily add them after the new receiver
BUT HOW CAN I KEEP FRONT WIDES FOR OBJECT-BASED AUDIO PLEASE?!?!?


and Thank You.
9.2.4 please

You want a 2015 7.1.4 capable Denon or Marantz unit, now starting to be price slashed to make way for the 2016 models. The 2016 7.1.4 units inexplicably dropped Front Wide support. Perhaps, manufacturers are now holding them back for their flagship models expected to show up in 2017.

If you would like the recommended four overhead speakers with your Front Wides, you must give up the back surround speakers - it's a trade-off due to the 11.1 processing limitation in all but two ultra high end processors, the Steinway/Lyngdorf and Trinnov Altitude. There are no other 9.2.4 or greater models available.

7.1.4 capable units with 5.1.4 + Front Wide rendering...

Receivers:

Denon 6200 and 7200WA

Marantz 7010

----

Pre-amp/processors:

Marantz 7702 mk II (this is what I have)

Marantz 8802A


I would recommend AV Science and talk to JD. They have competitive pricing and are fully authorized.

[Dubstar]

I know this comment doesn't really help in terms to the original question but I'm surprised Dolby hasn't encouraged the implementation of front wide channels, when it's done in cinema setups. Even DTS tried this for it's brief Neo-X encoded blurays

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

I know this comment doesn't really help in terms to the original question but I'm surprised Dolby hasn't encouraged the implementation of front wide channels, when it's done in cinema setups. Even DTS tried this for it's brief Neo-X encoded blurays

Dolby Atmos in both the commercial and consumer versions uses arrays of Front Surrounds (squashed into a pair of Front Wides in most consumer A/V products that can handle FW's and with full cinema speaker arrays in the Steinway/Lyngdorf and Trinnov Altitude).

DTS: X can also use Front Wides and so can DTS's Neural: X upmixer.

They encourage it, but it's up to the marketing departments of Denon/Marantz, Sony, Onkyo/Pioneer, Yamaha, etc. to implement their suggestions.

If you watch the making of Dolby Atmos mixes on the SoundWorks Collection, they often talk about steering dialog, sounds, and music to the Front Surround (Wides) locations to expand the frontal sound stage.

I'm using Front Wides in my home theater setup. They're extremely active. It's just silly that the 2016 models would completely drop them.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Dolby Atmos in both the commercial and consumer versions uses arrays of Front Surrounds (squashed into a pair of Front Wides in most consumer A/V products that can handle FW's and with full cinema speaker arrays in the Steinway/Lyngdorf and Trinnov Altitude).

DTS: X can also use Front Wides and so can DTS's Neural: X upmixer.

They encourage it, but it's up to the marketing departments of Denon/Marantz, Sony, Onkyo/Pioneer, Yamaha, etc. to implement their suggestions.

If you watch the making of Dolby Atmos mixes on the SoundWorks Collection, they often talk about steering dialog, sounds, and music to the Front Surround (Wides) locations to expand the frontal sound stage.

I'm using Front Wides in my home theater setup. They're extremely active. It's just silly that the 2016 models would completely drop them.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for a firmware upgrade somewhere down the road for 9.2.4 adding widths but I am not holding my breath. As much I enjoy width channels, I also like surround back channels as well, so I usually lose the widths for Atmos and DTS X mixes. For everything else, I seem to end up going back to width and front height (not top front) channels instead of utilizing DSU or Neual X up mixers. Room seems to have a better balance plus the front soundstage is huge.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by gotmule

I am keeping my fingers crossed for a firmware upgrade somewhere down the road for 9.2.4 adding widths but I am not holding my breath. As much I enjoy width channels, I also like surround back channels as well, so I usually lose the widths for Atmos and DTS X mixes. For everything else, I seem to end up going back to width and front height (not top front) channels instead of utilizing DSU or Neual X up mixers. Room seems to have a better balance plus the front soundstage is huge.

They can't just add more speaker rendering with a firmware update. The Dolby Atmos and DTS: X software is integrated into capable DSP chips. Plus, the external hardware has to have been set up to utilize those outputs.

The only fully expandable unit is the Trinnov Altitude... it should see an expansion unit to allow the full 62.2 configuration from the commercial cinemas as mentioned in marketing information from Trinnov.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

They can't just add more speaker rendering with a firmware update. The Dolby Atmos and DTS: X software is integrated into capable DSP chips. Plus, the external hardware has to have been set up to utilize those outputs.

The only fully expandable unit is the Trinnov Altitude... it should see an expansion unit to allow the full 62.2 configuration from the commercial cinemas as mentioned in marketing information from Trinnov.

Good thing I am not holding my breath then. Thanks!

[Dubstar]

I'm afraid to ask - how much is the Trinnov Altitude?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

I'm afraid to ask - how much is the Trinnov Altitude?

The same as a fully loaded Prius or basic Lexus sedan. It's in the same ballpark as commercial processors.

Though, it's one sweet ride!

[Blu-Roey]

The Trinnov dream isn't likely to become a reality for me in the near future.....

Thanks all for the input. I'll check out the 2015's too.

[Blu-Roey]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

You want a 2015 7.1.4 capable Denon or Marantz unit, now starting to be price slashed to make way for the 2016 models. The 2016 7.1.4 units inexplicably dropped Front Wide support. Perhaps, manufacturers are now holding them back for their flagship models expected to show up in 2017.

If you would like the recommended four overhead speakers with your Front Wides, you must give up the back surround speakers - it's a trade-off due to the 11.1 processing limitation in all but two ultra high end processors, the Steinway/Lyngdorf and Trinnov Altitude. There are no other 9.2.4 or greater models available.

7.1.4 capable units with 5.1.4 + Front Wide rendering...

Receivers:

Denon 6200 and 7200WA

Marantz 7010

----

Pre-amp/processors:

Marantz 7702 mk II (this is what I have)

Marantz 8802A


I would recommend AV Science and talk to JD. They have competitive pricing and are fully authorized.

Looking at your 7702 mk II... I see the pre-outs for wides. Can I run those at the same times as the rears and all 4 overheads, or does it top out at processing 11ch?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Blu-Roey

Looking at your 7702 mk II... I see the pre-outs for wides. Can I run those at the same times as the rears and all 4 overheads, or does it top out at processing 11ch?

All regular consumer gear is limited to 11.1 processing. If you want wides and the four overheads you have to drop the rear surrounds. If you want rear surrounds and wides then you have to drop one pair of overheads.

Note to all: you have to stick with 2015 Denon & Marantz 7.1.4/9.1.2 capable gear to get these two speaker options along with DTS: X decoding.

[Blu-Roey]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

All regular consumer gear is limited to 11.1 processing. If you want wides and the four overheads you have to drop the rear surrounds. If you want rear surrounds and wides then you have to drop one pair of overheads.

Note to all: you have to stick with 2015 Denon & Marantz 7.1.4/9.1.2 capable gear to get these two speaker options along with DTS: X decoding.

Gotcha. 11.1 max no matter what .
Thanks for the info!

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Blu-Roey

Gotcha. 11.1 max no matter what .
Thanks for the info!

Sure thing... unless... you want to sell a kidney and get a Trinnov based Atmos home theater system or say F it, sell a kidney and a leg, and buy a commercial cinema system for your luxury viewing room.

[Blu-Roey]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Sure thing... unless... you want to sell a kidney and get a Trinnov based Atmos home theater system or say F it, sell a kidney and a leg, and buy a commercial cinema system for your luxury viewing room.

I mean who need TWO kidneys anyway?