Why some 4K restorations have a yellow tint?

[filmmusic]

Ok, I may have opened Pandora's box here, but this is an honest question.
I have noticed that when a Bluray is said to be from a 4K restoration, apart from teal in most, it could also feature a yellow tint.

Could someone explain why is that?

Exhibit A:
RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...ess=#vergleich

Exhibit B:
THE LOVER
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134422

Exhibit C:
THE BEAR
(notice the sky)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134421

[chip75]

I don't think there's any thing that makes them more yellow, it's just a combination of the colourist's or director's choice and source material. The Lover doesn't look that yellow to me, it just looks like a modern scan. Raiders of the Lost Ark is yellow in the desert, but from the captures I've seen it's normal in other locations, previously it looked a bit cold.

I did have play around with The Lover, and you can see why the 4K scan (top) fits the feel of the picture better than the bottom image. The 4K one exudes warmth and fits the period far better.

[filmmusic]

well, I still prefer your bottom screenshot.
Anyway, when you see the yellow tint in one film, it's OK, but when you start seeing it all over in 4K restorations, it starts getting very predictable and boring in my opinion.

[MifuneFan]

Pro-B did comment on someting similar recently with regards to Arrow's release of 3 Women. Hopefully I"m not misconstruing his comments here wth regards to what you're referring to in this thread. To me it does sound like a "trend" with many restorations, but certainly not all.

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

2. The same crushing-like effect is present on the recent French restoration of Costa-Gavras' State of Siege, which Criterion released on Blu-ray. And you can see the same "yellow/brown/gray push" there. This is a typical digital effect that unfortunately appears on many, many recent remastering/restoration jobs (4K or 2K).


Pro-B

[chip75]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

well, I still prefer your bottom screenshot.
Anyway, when you see the yellow tint in one film, it's OK, but when you start seeing it all over in 4K restorations, it starts getting very predictable and boring in my opinion.

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Pro-B did comment on something similar recently with regards to Arrow's release of 3 Women. Hopefully I'm not misconstruing his comments here with regards to what you're referring to in this thread. To me it does sound like a "trend" with many restorations, but certainly not all.

I think it's sympathetic to the source then it's fine, but if it's a trend like MifuneFan pointed out with Pro-B's post, then it isn't a particularly good thing. At the end of the day people who work on film watch a lot of film and if it gets popular then that's how trends start. I was reminded of the Orange / Blue poster trend when I spotted this thread!

It is slightly depressing when we start to lose the original colour timing over modern trends. The main aim of a transfer should be accuracy, we don't really need colour changes or new surround mixes, originality is something prized in other fields yet it gets pushed aside too often with home video.

[imsounoriginal]

Surprised the OP didn't mention the poster child of 4K yellow transfers: The Good the Bad and the Ugly.

[mar3o]

Exactly what I was talking about yesterday in another thread. Modern color timing "upgrades" are ruining older films. Sky has to be yellow, people are either teal or orange - I'm sick of it. Don't they think the producers knew what they were doing when they made the film? Why this insane desire to re-color so many older films?

Movies look ugly these days, largely due to the hideous modern color timing choices, and as if it's not bad enough they're doing it to newer films, they have to go back and ruin older films too.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Which is more accurate? It's impossible to say - because only three people were present at the original colour grading sessions, two of them are now dead, and the third has gone blind (and that was a decade ago: he may well have died since). And of course 35mm prints aren't reliable because the film is half a century old and the colour dyes will have faded since 1964 - as demonstrated by the fact that the prints that Criterion and the BFI used clearly look different.

I think that's a different thing and perfectly understandable, you guys are striving to do your utmost to restore and preserve the original artistic intent, but you have little to go on, so even if two teams with the same standards tackle the same film, we may see different results. It's educated guesswork from two different sources. You're not trying to impose your personal tastes onto another persons work, you're just trying to represent it the best you can.

On the other hand you'll have technicians that see trends forming or directors that like the look of a modern movie and they tweak the colour to match their contemporary tastes and original artistic intent gets thrown out the window in favour of new and shiny.

[malakaheso]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

That sounds obvious, but sometimes this is genuinely impossible to establish. For instance, the BFI and Criterion both released Red Desert with slightly different colour grading - both discs were sourced from the same scan of the original neg at Technicolor in Rome, but Criterion and the BFI each used a different reference print: Criterion borrowed one from MOMA while the BFI used their own archival print.

Which is more accurate? It's impossible to say - because only three people were present at the original colour grading sessions, two of them are now dead, and the third has gone blind (and that was a decade ago: he may well have died since). And of course 35mm prints aren't reliable because the film is half a century old and the colour dyes will have faded since 1964 - as demonstrated by the fact that the prints that Criterion and the BFI used clearly look different.

yes, but even if they were alive, that doesn't mean their memory is reliable. Plus some directors go into revisionist mode and want to change the look of their old films for whatever reason.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Pro-B did comment on someting similar recently with regards to Arrow's release of 3 Women. Hopefully I"m not misconstruing his comments here wth regards to what you're referring to in this thread. To me it does sound like a "trend" with many restorations, but certainly not all.

You are definitely not, Michael.

However, I would like to clarify something. On the new Fox master for Altman's 3 Women and the French master for Costa-Gavras' State of Siege you essentially have crushing-like effects that have wiped out existing detail. So there are bigger issues there.

There seem to be two major factors contributing to these anomalies:

1. Proper color grading does not appear to be a major priority when big restorations are made. For example, Fox have a number of problematic restorations. But I also see this on a regular basis with French labels (Gaumont/Pathe, etc.).

2. The new digital tools that are used during restorations today are very powerful, and my theory is that a lot of people simply aren't skilled enough to do proper work.

3. Someone with the knowledge and authority to make the proper corrections -- when needed -- always has to be around when new restorations are done. I am yet to see a big botched job of a color film from Sony, and there is a good reason why.

filmmusic: I already commented on The Lover in another thread (some time ago). The light yellow font is part of the original cinematography.

Pro-B

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

2. The new digital tools that are used during restorations today are very powerful, and my theory is that a lot of people simply aren't skilled enough to do proper work.
Pro-B

Some great points here. I highlighted this one because this one stands out as very depressing to me. If Hollywood studios can't be bothered to hire or train skilled technicians who know what they're doing with film, then we've all lost. I mean we're talking about movies - this is what Hollywood is all about - yet they seem more and more incompetent with releases as time moves forward. The technology improves but the skill level drops so the releases are handled improperly.

These aren't small changes - they affect films in a major way and can ruin the experience for fans who are used to seeing it so many times in the past.

[CYBORGX]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

well, I still prefer your bottom screenshot.
Anyway, when you see the yellow tint in one film, it's OK, but when you start seeing it all over in 4K restorations, it starts getting very predictable and boring in my opinion.

I TOTALLY agree. I've looked at at least 20 4K Transfers, and they are almost ALL yellow and washed out. Playing any 1080p version of the same movie, same movie player on the same screen, give a properly callibrated and normal picture.

I find it amazing that there are not more people up in arms about this.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by chip75

I don't think there's any thing that makes them more yellow, it's just a combination of the colourist's or director's choice and source material. The Lover doesn't look that yellow to me, it just looks like a modern scan. Raiders of the Lost Ark is yellow in the desert, but from the captures I've seen it's normal in other locations, previously it looked a bit cold.

I did have play around with The Lover, and you can see why the 4K scan (top) fits the feel of the picture better than the bottom image. The 4K one exudes warmth and fits the period far better.

[Show spoiler]

Sorry, I'll take the bottom one any day. Every movie doesn't have to be teal, orange, or yellow. Why can't people look like people, with natural flesh tones? That's how movies used to look.

[CinemaScope]

When they do a 4K scan of the original negatives, they have to colour grade the picture from scratch, & I suppose it depends on who is the colourist. I get more annoyed by the cool look a lot of them love so much these days.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by CinemaScope

When they do a 4K scan of the original negatives, they have to colour grade the picture from scratch, & I suppose it depends on who is the colourist. I get more annoyed by the cool look a lot of them love so much these days.

It really makes me appreciate it when I see an older film get a release where they didn't botch it up, because it's always wonderful to see an older film shine with the bright and colorful natural tones they always had. It makes poor releases really stand out when suddenly an older film is completely yellow or teal or orange.

[Trax-3]

. For instance, the BFI and Criterion both released Red Desert with slightly different colour grading - both discs were sourced from the same scan of the original neg at Technicolor in Rome, but Criterion and the BFI each used a different reference print: Criterion borrowed one from MOMA while the BFI used their own archival print.

Robert Harris has a lenghty post here where he explains why most prints, even dye-transfer prints, are not fit to be used as reference.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by mar3o

[/SPOILER]

Sorry, I'll take the bottom one any day. Every movie doesn't have to be teal, orange, or yellow. Why can't people look like people, with natural flesh tones? That's how movies used to look.

Yes, but movies of some decades ago, especially Hollywood Technicolor movies had beautiful, but unrealistic pastels and deeply saturated color. That was fine for a Hollywood fantasy musical, but it didn't necessarily work for a gritty urban thriller.

When the various "new ages" came along, directors wanted grittier looking films and they started desaturating the color. We've been living with largely desaturated color for decades. If Harry Potter had been made 30 years ago, it probably would have been brightly lit and had deeply saturated tones. I don't know how the teal push trend started, but I do hate it. And I agree that the films with teal or yellow push generally look terrible.

The problem is that even the directors of the original films sometimes change the color when a film is remastered. We've all seen the various color versions of films like "The French Connection". I think when there's not a lot of money for remastering, sometimes they attempt to match just one frame and when the color timing changed from shot to shot in the original, it's not accomodated.

I agree that the color should match the original as close as possible, but sometimes that's impossible because the color has long faded in the available remaining prints. And even when that's not the case, the prints made in decades past for first-run theatres in NYC and Los Angeles were carefully controlled prints and may have looked very different than the prints that everyone else got.

And as far as viewing those prints in a theatre was concerned, different light levels (some theaters purposely used lower light levels to save electricity) and whether a theatre was still using carbon arc or not would affect the color displayed on the screen. Also the type of screen could vary the color a bit as well.

So there's a tremendous number of variables.

[CYBORGX]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Yes, but movies of some decades ago, especially Hollywood Technicolor movies had beautiful, but unrealistic pastels and deeply saturated color. That was fine for a Hollywood fantasy musical, but it didn't necessarily work for a gritty urban thriller.

When the various "new ages" came along, directors wanted grittier looking films and they started desaturating the color. We've been living with largely desaturated color for decades. If Harry Potter had been made 30 years ago, it probably would have been brightly lit and had deeply saturated tones. I don't know how the teal push trend started, but I do hate it. And I agree that the films with teal or yellow push generally look terrible.

The problem is that even the directors of the original films sometimes change the color when a film is remastered. We've all seen the various color versions of films like "The French Connection". I think when there's not a lot of money for remastering, sometimes they attempt to match just one frame and when the color timing changed from shot to shot in the original, it's not accomodated.

I agree that the color should match the original as close as possible, but sometimes that's impossible because the color has long faded in the available remaining prints. And even when that's not the case, the prints made in decades past for first-run theatres in NYC and Los Angeles were carefully controlled prints and may have looked very different than the prints that everyone else got.

And as far as viewing those prints in a theatre was concerned, different light levels (some theaters purposely used lower light levels to save electricity) and whether a theatre was still using carbon arc or not would affect the color displayed on the screen. Also the type of screen could vary the color a bit as well.

So there's a tremendous number of variables.

Have you even looked at the movies we are talking about?!

It has NOTHING to do with the over saturated movies of the past, this is modern movies looking like everyone comes from central SE Asia, and the sun has completed changed it's colour!!!!

[Canada]

Originally Posted by chip75

I don't think there's any thing that makes them more yellow, it's just a combination of the colourist's or director's choice and source material. The Lover doesn't look that yellow to me, it just looks like a modern scan. Raiders of the Lost Ark is yellow in the desert, but from the captures I've seen it's normal in other locations, previously it looked a bit cold.

I did have play around with The Lover, and you can see why the 4K scan (top) fits the feel of the picture better than the bottom image. The 4K one exudes warmth and fits the period far better.

I personally think that the resolution in the top image is better but the bottom image looks more natural.

The top image looks as though I am looking through yellow tinted sun glasses.

[Canada]

When I went to see Top Gun 3D it was though I was watching a different film, because I was used to a more blueish colour grading not the yellow that the 3D version was