UHD player with YUV420 output?

[s_har]

Does anyone know if there are any UHD blu-ray players on the market that is capable of outputting YUV420?

My current players (Panasonic BDP700 and Sony UBP-X800) only offer me the options of outputting either 444 or 422. It is my understanding that the UHD BD spec is 420 and so I'm wondering if there is a way to output that native 420 somehow?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by s_har

Does anyone know if there are any UHD blu-ray players on the market that is capable of outputting YUV420?

My current players (Panasonic BDP700 and Sony UBP-X800) only offer me the options of outputting either 444 or 422. It is my understanding that the UHD BD spec is 420 and so I'm wondering if there is a way to output that native 420 somehow?

I think it's YCbCr not YUV (that's a different format). The flagship Panasonic does. The Oppo does to, but whilst the discs are mastered to 4:2:0 it's usually converted to 4:2:2. I think some players Auto settings are 4:4:4.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think it's YCbCr not YUV (that's a different format). The flagship Panasonic does. The Oppo does to, but whilst the discs are mastered to 4:2:0 it's usually converted to 4:2:2. I think some players Auto settings are 4:4:4.

Yes I did indeed mean YCbCr. I mix up the two regularly.
Yeah I keep both my players to auto, not sure whether they output 444 or 422 on auto though. I think one of my main reasons why I would like the option of outputting the native 420 is because some equipment like HDMI splitters and such only supports 420 and as a result both of my UHD players switches to HDR conversion mode when it detects a device not compatible with 422/444.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by s_har

Yes I did indeed mean YCbCr. I mix up the two regularly.
Yeah I keep both my players to auto, not sure whether they output 444 or 422 on auto though. I think one of my main reasons why I would like the option of outputting the native 420 is because some equipment like HDMI splitters and such only supports 420 and as a result both of my UHD players switches to HDR conversion mode when it detects a device not compatible with 422/444.

I think you just have to go through the manuals on-line. Like I mentioned the flagship Panasonic, the OPPO and Philips players can output 4:2:0. So there are options out there.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think you just have to go through the manuals on-line. Like I mentioned the flagship Panasonic, the OPPO and Philips players can output 4:2:0. So there are options out there.

Thanks! It's good to know there are options out there. I'll look into it and with any luck there is a Dolby Vision capable player out there that offers this setting (since I already own two UHD players I can't really justify upgrading unless I get a player that also supports DV).

[gkolb]

If you upgrade to a DoVi player, you may have to go direct to the TV, everything in the chain will have to pass HDMI 2.0b for the DoVi handshake from player to display.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by gkolb

If you upgrade to a DoVi player, you may have to go direct to the TV, everything in the chain will have to pass HDMI 2.0b for the DoVi handshake from player to display.

I see, but won't I be able to select HDR10 even when playing back DV discs?
(I mean for those times I will want to output 420).

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by s_har

I see, but won't I be able to select HDR10 even when playing back DV discs?
(I mean for those times I will want to output 420).

It’s possible to configure the Oppo 203/205 to output HDR10 (it will default to DoVi first). I have no idea on other makers DoVi players. But, if you play a DoVi disc in an HDR10 player, it will play the base layer just fine, ignoring the on top DoVi layer.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by s_har

Does anyone know if there are any UHD blu-ray players on the market that is capable of outputting YUV420?

My current players (Panasonic BDP700 and Sony UBP-X800) only offer me the options of outputting either 444 or 422. It is my understanding that the UHD BD spec is 420 and so I'm wondering if there is a way to output that native 420 somehow?

DVD, BD and UHD are all using 4:2:0 subampling. Nothing has changed in that respect. 4:2:0 was avoided as an actual output format in the days of yore because it caused further chroma issues with interlaced content, but now in the era of progressive video (interlaced isn't even part of the UHD Blu spec) it's not so much of a concern.

I think there are some wires being crossed here, however. Several players will give you the option for a 4:2:0 output but it is for 4K50/60 content ONLY, not for conventional 4K24/25/30p which will be output at 4:2:2 at the minimum by those same players. Why only for 4K50/60? Because this setting was devised as a workaround for 'half fat' HDMI 2.0 chips that couldn't handle the full 18Gb/s bandwidth but which needed 4K60 compatibility to actually meet HDMI 2.0 specifications, so by limiting 4K50/60 output to 8-bit 4:2:0 it managed to fit inside the 10.2Gb/s bandwidth of those lesser chips.

[edit] Interestingly enough the OPPO can still output a 4K50/60 8-bit 4:2:0 HDR 2020 image to one of these 'half fat' chips e.g. HDMIs 1 and 4 of most current Sony models if the TV is feeding it the right EDID, whereas if you set the Panasonic players to 4:2:0 for 4K50/60 then it will force that content into 8-bit 4:2:0 SDR 709 regardless. Regardez:

OPPO



Panny

[s_har]

Originally Posted by gkolb

It’s possible to configure the Oppo 203/205 to output HDR10 (it will default to DoVi first). I have no idea on other makers DoVi players. But, if you play a DoVi disc in an HDR10 player, it will play the base layer just fine, ignoring the on top DoVi layer.

Thanks. I suspect once I eventually upgrade to a DV capable player I'll most likely want to watch the disc in DV anyway, but having the option to force it to HDR10 would be convenient in cases where I want to compare HDR10 VS Dolby Vision.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

DVD, BD and UHD are all using 4:2:0 subampling. Nothing has changed in that respect. 4:2:0 was avoided as an actual output format in the days of yore because it caused further chroma issues with interlaced content, but now in the era of progressive video (interlaced isn't even part of the UHD Blu spec) it's not so much of a concern.

I think there are some wires being crossed here, however. Several players will give you the option for a 4:2:0 output but it is for 4K50/60 content ONLY, not for conventional 4K24/25/30p which will be output at 4:2:2 at the minimum by those same players. Why only for 4K50/60? Because this setting was devised as a workaround for 'half fat' HDMI 2.0 chips that couldn't handle the full 18Gb/s bandwidth but which needed 4K60 compatibility to actually meet HDMI 2.0 specifications, so by limiting 4K50/60 output to 8-bit 4:2:0 it managed to fit inside the 10.2Gb/s bandwidth of those lesser chips.

[edit] Interestingly enough the OPPO can still output a 4K50/60 8-bit 4:2:0 HDR 2020 image to one of these 'half fat' chips e.g. HDMIs 1 and 4 of most current Sony models if the TV is feeding it the right EDID, whereas if you set the Panasonic players to 4:2:0 for 4K50/60 then it will force that content into 8-bit 4:2:0 SDR 709 regardless.

Thanks. So basically there is no way to output the native 420 that's on disc as a 24p 10-bit HDR signal then I take it. Because that particular 'combination' doesn't exist as a standard is that it? It has to be 422 or 444 in order to have 24fps as an option?

So if some of the splitter in my chain is rated as 420 capable only then that basically means there is no way I will be able to run a 24p signal through it? It will have to be upconverted from 24fps to 60/50fps (thus defeating my purpose)in order for the signal to pass through?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by s_har

Thanks. So basically there is no way to output the native 420 that's on disc as a 24p 10-bit HDR signal then I take it. Because that particular 'combination' doesn't exist as a standard is that it? It has to be 422 or 444 in order to have 24fps as an option?

Correct.

So if some of the splitter in my chain is rated as 420 capable only then that basically means there is no way I will be able to run a 24p signal through it? It will have to be upconverted from 24fps to 60/50fps (thus defeating my purpose)in order for the signal to pass through?

If your splitter can't handle greater subsampling than 4:2:0 even in 4K24 then I kinda doubt it'd have enough bandwidth to handle 4K50/60. It shouldn't even be a HDMI-branded device if it can't accept a 4:2:2 signal in any way, shape or form. Or this is some sort of Cat5 network doobrie or something?

[s_har]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

If your splitter can't handle greater subsampling than 4:2:0 even in 4K24 then I kinda doubt it'd have enough bandwidth to handle 4K50/60. It shouldn't even be a HDMI-branded device if it can't accept a 4:2:2 signal in any way, shape or form. Or this is some sort of Cat5 network doobrie or something?

It's just a regular HDMI splitter that's (from the look of it anyway) supposed to be UltraHD HDMI2.0 HDCP2.2 compliant.

According to the specs it is:

300MHz/10.2 Gbps bandwith

Output Resolution:
480i ~1080p50/60, 4Kx2K@24/30,
4k2k@60Hz with 12bit YCBCR 4:2:0

I guess it is that bandwith that is the limiting factor here that is causing it not to accept 4K@24p 10-bit HDR 422/444?
When I connect it to a UHD player the player kicks into dynamic range conversion mode which I assume is because the player detects it is connected to a device not capable of recieving the 422/444 signal?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by s_har

It's just a regular HDMI splitter that's (from the look of it anyway) supposed to be UltraHD HDMI2.0 HDCP2.2 compliant.

Does it convert HDR into SDR with all media (like demo videos from a USB stick)? perhaps it doesn't support HDR. Not all HDMI2.0 HDCP2.2 splitters do.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by chip75

Does it convert HDR into SDR with all media (like demo videos from a USB stick)? perhaps it doesn't support HDR. Not all HDMI2.0 HDCP2.2 splitters do.

I haven't tested it with anything else than UHD discs. I guess I just assumed since it's supposed to handle 4K@60p 12-bit 420 that it would also be able to handle a 4K@24p 10-bit HDR signal. Will try testing with demo video from USB stick tomorrow.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by s_har

I haven't tested it with anything else than UHD discs. I guess I just assumed since it's supposed to handle 4K@60p 12-bit 420 that it would also be able to handle a 4K@24p 10-bit HDR signal. Will try testing with demo video from USB stick tomorrow.

I would. I looked at them for another member and a lot of them don't support HDR. Do you know the model of the splitter?

The other issue with some splitters is if you input HDR, but can only one device can output it (say you have a projector (which doesn't) and a UHD TV that does), it can downgrade the signal automatically.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by s_har

It's just a regular HDMI splitter that's (from the look of it anyway) supposed to be UltraHD HDMI2.0 HDCP2.2 compliant.

According to the specs it is:


I guess it is that bandwith that is the limiting factor here that is causing it not to accept 4K@24p 10-bit HDR 422/444?
When I connect it to a UHD player the player kicks into dynamic range conversion mode which I assume is because the player detects it is connected to a device not capable of recieving the 422/444 signal?

10.2Gb/s should not be a problem for 4K24 at up to 12-bit 4:2:2 at all. As chip said, if the dynamic range conversion is being triggered when you use the splitter with UHD then something else is going on, bandwidth isn't the issue.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by chip75

The other issue with some splitters is if you input HDR, but can only one device can output it (say you have a projector (which doesn't) and a UHD TV that does), it can downgrade the signal automatically.

Thanks! This turned out to be the case! It seems the splitter is not the culprit at all. One of the connected displays it seems is not recognised as HDR compatible and so the UHD player kicks into dynamic range conversion and downgrades the signal for the whole chain. Even when disconnecting the incompatible display in question the player maintained the conversion output (which is probably why I wasn't able to pinpoint this as the problem before)

The solution it turns out is to simply start playback of the UHD disc with only the HDR compatible display connected to the splitter and then after playback is started connect the non-compatible display. When doing it that way the UHD player does not kick into conversion mode and instead maintains the full HDR signal.

[chip75]

Glad you got it sorted, mate.