Dolby Vision on 4k Projector

[Quint van der Vaart]

Hi all,

I am looking into buying a projector for my new home theater and I was doing some research on the internet but something surprises me.
For all capable HDR projectors there is none that I cam find that has Dolby Vision next to hdr10.
So why is that ??
Is it just because the tech isn’t there yet or just way too expensive for hardware makers to license it ?

Hope you guys can explain

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

Hi all,

I am looking into buying a projector for my new home theater and I was doing some research on the internet but something surprises me.
For all capable HDR projectors there is none that I cam find that has Dolby Vision next to hdr10.
So why is that ??
Is it just because the tech isn’t there yet or just way too expensive for hardware makers to license it ?

Hope you guys can explain

Neither. Dolby Vision relies on the algorithms knowing the display’s capabilities to properly tone map HDR content. Since for projectors brightness levels depend on many variables that are determined by setting, equipment, and time (ambient light, screeen’s gain, loss of brightness with time, etc), there would be no way for the algorithms to automatically know the brightness of a projectior on the screen. Hence, no projector makers have released one with Dolby Vision.

Dolby Cinemas use Dolby Vision because they use specific equipment and control ambient-light to the point that they know how to calibrate it so that the light from the screen reaches a specific level which Dolby Vision can use to properly render the picture through the projector. Since at home equipment and ambient light varies so much from setup to setup, there’s no current way for companies to include it and make sure that it works as intended. For flat screens it’s a different story because their brightness levels are known and they don’t noticeably degrade until thousands upon thousands of hours later, and ambient light affects their performance way less compared to projector setups. I think it will come to projectors at some point but not anytime too soon.

P.S: The best HDR projectors currently available come from Sony and JVC. They have the best tone mapping currently available for HDR content. If you can control ambient light and have a pitch black room, I would recommend a JVC projector as it has the best native contrast for a projector, which HDR relies a lot upon. If you go for the mid or higher end pro series you’ll also get a wide color gamut as well that pretty much matches the colors that most projector cinemas have.

[roar]

I also read something about the general capabilities of the current offerings of home projectors not being capable of meeting the minimum requirements of 4,000 nits of brightness that DV requires.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by roar

I also read something about the general capabilities of the current offerings of home projectors not being capable of meeting the minimum requirements of 4,000 nits of brightness that DV requires.

You don’t need 4,000 nits to be able to play DV content. Dolby Cinemas hit only about 106 nits, and no current consumer display available can achieve that brightness yet. It is true that DV discs are mastered at 4,000, but for DV to work properly, it just needs to know the displays capabilities/limitations in terms of contrast, brightness, color, etc., and it’ll tone map as appropriate within those capabilities to properly render the picture on the given display.

That’s why it is the superior HDR format right now. It not only does it dynamically change the metadata to enhance the picture, but it does so within the displays’ limitations so that the picture is compromised minimally or not at all (depending on the display).

[Quint van der Vaart]

I am looking into the Sony laser projector VPL-VW760 as it looked stunning when i saw a demo of it but I understand that you would recommend a JVC ?

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

I am looking into the Sony laser projector VPL-VW760 as it looked stunning when i saw a demo of it but I understand that you would recommend a JVC ?

Let me look more into it. It looks promising for sure though. However, have you looked at the price? If you can afford it, it’ll likely be better than the JVC’s when looked as a whole. But let me read more on it and see how it compares.

[Quint van der Vaart]

It would cost me a cool 15.000 euro's but I want to project onto a big screen and I want 4k picture so I expected it to cost a lot

[JoeFair1977]

BenQ (formerly Acer) makes a UHD HDR10 capable projector...$1500 on Amazon.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

It would cost me a cool 15.000 euro's but I want to project onto a big screen and I want 4k picture so I expected it to cost a lot

So there are definitely options but since I'm not sure what priorities and tastes you have for displays, I will say this:

The new format, named 4K or UHD, shows greater visible improvement in dynamic range (contrast from content, basically), in color (since it can reproduce a wider color gamut with better saturation across brighter levels), and lastly and least importantly, in resolution thanks to the extra pixels. The name they decided go with (4K) is almost ironic given how human eyes work, since most people notice HDR and better color on the new format more than they do the extra pixels. That is why I always recommend that people do not get too hung up on pixel count and focus more on the HDR and color performance of a display, especially when buying a new one since that is likely what they'll notice more.

Having said all that, most 4K projectors use pixel shifting to increment the visible resolution (which falls at a level that is certainly higher than 1080p but below actual 4K), and the most expensive ones do show the full amount of pixels. However, I've kept up with different posts over at AVS Forum and when testing and trying new projectors, the great majority of people cannot differentiate between actual 4K and pixel-shifting 4K at regular seating distances with regular content (basically, how you'd watch movies with a projector). So again, another reason not too get hung up on that aspect and focus more on HDR and WCG (Wider Color Gamut).

So, with all that in mind, I would recommend either the higher end JVC projector of their pro series (which goes for about $9,000 here in the US), the Sony you were considering, and the Epson 1500.

Now for the pros and cons which should help you decide which one to go with.

JVC

Pros:

• Currently, hands down the best native contrast that you will find in a projector, even better than both the Sony and Epson mentioned above. This is important as again, HDR for 4K content is more effective with better contrast.
• Same for dynamic contrast (with the iris). It has the best one of probably all consumer projectors.
• After calibration, it still ends up with a high brightness output, very comparable to the Sony's, even with the lower price point.
• It switches to HDR mode automatically with its own settings, completely separate than the SDR mode.
• It accepts the full 18GBps bandwidth of HDMI, so you can watch 4K60fps content with HDR/WCG gamut (important if you play HDR videogames or have an HDR media player like Chromecast that is locked to 60fps).
• Significantly cheaper than the Sony.

Cons:

• Image processing is good but not quite as good as Sony's.
• It uses a color filter to cover the whole WCG that 4K movies have. This makes it take a slight hit on brightness, but as long as the screen isn't insanely big, it should be fine.
• It is not laser and thus it uses a lamp. Meaning you'll probably have to re-adjust the calibration a bit about every 6months or so depending on how much you use it; and you'll need to replace the lamp about every 1.5yrs to be able to properly watch HDR content (about $300 per lamp).

Epson

Pros:

• It uses a laser for its light source.
• Laser dimming is better than on the Sony's (meaning better dynamic range).
• It has good HDR and WCG.
• Significantly cheaper than the Sony.
• Excellent customer service and excellent warranty from Epson (I've dealt with them back when I had an Epson and they have probably the best customer service within projector companies).
• The projector comes in a package that includes a mount, and in case you use 3D, it comes with two pairs of glasses.

Cons:

• Even though it uses laser, it is dimmer than both the JVC and the Sony. However, that brightness will stay pretty constant for years, and you'll probably only need to recalibrate about every 2 years (again, depending on usage).
• Does not have the great contrast of the JVC. It's good but JVC is the clear winner here.
• Black levels are not as deep and inky as the JVC. Important if you like watching pure black on stuff like sci-fi films or scary ones.
• Image processing is good but not quite as good as Sony's.
• Is limited to a lower HDMI bandwidth, meaning that any 4K/HDR/WCG content at 60fps will get reduced to 8bits and that will cause digital artifacts in gradients like color banding.
• You need to manually change from SDR to HDR mode and viceversa depending on whatever you're playing. The projector won't change modes automatically (so if you forget to change it when needed, you might be watching it in the wrong mode and the picture quality will be negatively affected).

Sony

Pros:

• Laser technology for its light source.
• Native 4K resolution.
• Excellent image processing.
• Very good out-of-the-box settings (meaning that if you wish not to calibrate, the SDR mode will be pretty good already; although probably not so much for HDR).
• Does not need a color filter to achieve a good WCG.

Cons:

• Most expesive out of the three, about 40% more so.
• Black levels are not as good as the JVC's. They're good but the JVC beats it hands down.
• Although the projector changes to an HDR mode automatically, a few of the settings, like brightness, cannot be saved differently between modes, so in those cases, they have to share the same settings across all modes; meaning you'll be compromising on either SDR or HDR mode unless you plan to manually change those settings every time the projector switches modes.
• Is limited to a lower HDMI bandwidth, meaning that any 4K/HDR/WCG content at 60fps will get reduced to 8bits and that will cause digital artifacts in gradients like color banding.
• Laser does not have good dimming, meaning that overall dynamic contrast is not as good (weird given the price point).
• It seems Sony has been giving minimal firmware updates, with some owners complaining that it is not supporting it as well considering its price.

Given all that, I don't think you can go wrong with any of them for SDR and HDR content. Personally, if I currently had the space and budget, I would go with the JVC since it has the best contrast overall and great WCG as well. It'd be a bit of a pain to slightly adjust it twice a year and change the lamp every 1.5yrs, but I think it's totally worth it. Also, I like that you don't have to manually change modes and that the projector will automatically do it for you depending on the source it detects. That way you won't find yourself with a bad image due to forgetting to switch modes. Also, it has the full bandwidth of HDMI for 4K/HDR/WCG content at 60fps.

If you want a more "set it and forget it" approach I would go with the Sony. You can't replace the laser but it lasts so long that you'll probably end up buying a newer projector before the picture gets too dim. However, the contrast and black levels are not as good, and since some settings do not change automatically you'll need to compromise a bit between SDR and HDR to not have to manually change those settings. Also, it won't properly render 4K/HDR/WCG content at 60fps. Not important unless again, you plan to play HDR videogames or have an HDR media player like Chromecast that is locked to 60fps.

I included the Epson given it gives you laser and HDR capabilities at a cheaper price, however the brightness is lower.

So overall, there is no perfect projector. You have to compromise one way or another. For me, I'd go with the JVC. It requires slight adjusting about twice a year and replacement of the lamp after a long while, but it's also cheaper (meaning money saved for the extra lamps), gives the best image IMO, with its great contrast and deep and inky blacks, plus automatic mode switching with optimized settings. And since I play HDR video games (Xbox One X), I wouldn't have to lower the quality of the image for them. This compromise is the one worth it to me.

Of course the compromise that is worth it to you might be different, but at least with this info I hope you'll feel better informed and more confident on the decision. Whatever that might end up being.

Not sure if you can sample them at a store with good ambient light control (meaning in a very dark or pitch-black room), but if you can, I would definitely recommend doing that. Just make sure you switch the modes to "Cinema" or something similar since most stores will have them on "Vivid" (or similar) which is a highly inaccurate mode in all displays, not just projectors. It looks more shiny but it is nothing close that will render the picture as intended by filmmakers and creators of other content.

Let me know if you have any more questions. Hope that helps .

[Quint van der Vaart]

Samlop10 wow thanks for your very comprehensive explanation on my request for info about projector choices.

I have seen the Sony already in a very dark room, it was demonstrated at a home cinema builder.
I will ask about the JVC if I can get a demo of that as well in the same conditions, curious to see what that's like after reading your comments about it !

Again thanks and I will post when I seen the other projector

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

Samlop10 wow thanks for your very comprehensive explanation on my request for info about projector choices.

I have seen the Sony already in a very dark room, it was demonstrated at a home cinema builder.
I will ask about the JVC if I can get a demo of that as well in the same conditions, curious to see what that's like after reading your comments about it !

Again thanks and I will post when I seen the other projector

No problem. Sounds good . Let us know your thoughts and your decision after you demo it. Hopefully you can keep us updated with the installation once you get whichever one you decide to go for.

[Quint van der Vaart]

Okay so I have a little update for ya'll

I got a chance to see the JVC DLA-X9900BE projector in action with the same conditions as the Sony laser projector I saw earlier.
I have to say the JVC has some great contrast images and looks great overall with 4k content.
But ultimately I went with the Sony laser projector as it can project images on a large screen and I could get a combo deal with a custom made screen.

As of now I am in the process of building the room itself and I have found a professional calibrator who will make sure everything will look stunning settings wise.
I estimate that it takes a couple of weeks to finish the room and then the Sony can be installed and the calibrator can do his magic.

The room will be very minimalistic designed with Dolby Atmos 7.2.6 setup through build-in speakers and three cinema-seats.
4K player wise I am still thinking about the Oppo or the new flagship Panasonic DP-UB9004.

Keep you guys posted when done.

[roar]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

Okay so I have a little update for ya'll

I got a chance to see the JVC DLA-X9900BE projector in action with the same conditions as the Sony laser projector I saw earlier.
I have to say the JVC has some great contrast images and looks great overall with 4k content.
But ultimately I went with the Sony laser projector as it can project images on a large screen and I could get a combo deal with a custom made screen.

As of now I am in the process of building the room itself and I have found a professional calibrator who will make sure everything will look stunning settings wise.
I estimate that it takes a couple of weeks to finish the room and then the Sony can be installed and the calibrator can do his magic.

The room will be very minimalistic designed with Dolby Atmos 7.2.6 setup through build-in speakers and three cinema-seats.
4K player wise I am still thinking about the Oppo or the new flagship Panasonic DP-UB9004.

Keep you guys posted when done.

Wow! Good for you! I'm still dragging my feet on my 4K projector. Going to see what comes out in the fall I think. Having only 1 projector with an actual 4K panel to choose from in my price range isn't how I want to make this purchase. Really hoping JVC steps up and gives Sony some competition.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

Okay so I have a little update for ya'll

I got a chance to see the JVC DLA-X9900BE projector in action with the same conditions as the Sony laser projector I saw earlier.
I have to say the JVC has some great contrast images and looks great overall with 4k content.
But ultimately I went with the Sony laser projector as it can project images on a large screen and I could get a combo deal with a custom made screen.

As of now I am in the process of building the room itself and I have found a professional calibrator who will make sure everything will look stunning settings wise.
I estimate that it takes a couple of weeks to finish the room and then the Sony can be installed and the calibrator can do his magic.

The room will be very minimalistic designed with Dolby Atmos 7.2.6 setup through build-in speakers and three cinema-seats.
4K player wise I am still thinking about the Oppo or the new flagship Panasonic DP-UB9004.

Keep you guys posted when done.

Thanks for the update .

I’m not sure if you’ll be able to find an OPPO at this stage (given they’ve been OOP for a while now) but if you do manage to find one definitely get it, you won’t be disappointed. If not, the Panasonic is still a great player and some people actually prefer it over the OPPO.

Take some pictures if you can I’m sure me and others would love to see the room and projector.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Quint van der Vaart

Okay so I have a little update for ya'll

I got a chance to see the JVC DLA-X9900BE projector in action with the same conditions as the Sony laser projector I saw earlier.
I have to say the JVC has some great contrast images and looks great overall with 4k content.
But ultimately I went with the Sony laser projector as it can project images on a large screen and I could get a combo deal with a custom made screen.

As of now I am in the process of building the room itself and I have found a professional calibrator who will make sure everything will look stunning settings wise.
I estimate that it takes a couple of weeks to finish the room and then the Sony can be installed and the calibrator can do his magic.

The room will be very minimalistic designed with Dolby Atmos 7.2.6 setup through build-in speakers and three cinema-seats.
4K player wise I am still thinking about the Oppo or the new flagship Panasonic DP-UB9004.

Keep you guys posted when done.

Excellent choice!

Panasonic's HDR optimizer works great with my projector, So I guess it will work great with the 760 too.