Next-gen consoles: why we'll still be playing games at 30fps

[Mavrick]

Article by Richard Leadbetter, Technology Editor, Digital Foundry

There was one key takeaway from the recent PlayStation 5 games reveal, beyond how good the key titles looked - and that's the fact that the 30fps console video game is clearly not a thing of the past. In actual fact, the evidence suggests that the 30fps performance target underpins the majority of Sony's impressive first-party offerings including Horizon Forbidden West, Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart and Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales. It's seemingly a key point of difference between PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X - while stressing that developers can use the console's power as they wish, Microsoft has often talked about 60fps as a design target for next-gen, even mooting the idea of 120fps gaming in some scenarios for the new wave of HDMI 2.1 displays.

The arrival of a new console generation always brings with it expectations of 60fps gaming but it's my contention that any move away from the console standard 30 frames per second has to come from the developer, because while the next-gen consoles from both Sony and Microsoft are highly powerful - the extra horsepower can only go so far. In creating Xbox Series X, the Microsoft hardware team aimed for a minimum of 2x the compute power of Xbox One X. They got that (and more) but the basic maths is pretty straightforward - if you deliver twice the power of existing console hardware, doubling frame-rate effectively sucks up most of that extra throughput, meaning that there's little left over to push graphical fidelity in other areas.

Sony kicked off its PS5 reveal with a short teaser for Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales - and the evidence suggests that developer Insomniac is sticking with the 30fps performance of the original game, even though the horsepower exists to double frame-rate to 60fps. Ever since the reveal, I've been thinking a lot about what one of my favourite games of this console generation would look like running at 60fps, so when my PC was otherwise idle, I set it up to process two hours of Spider-Man PS4 Pro 4K capture, using pixel-motion analysis to deliver a frame-rate upscale from 30fps to 60fps. The results of my efforts can be seen below, but suffice to say, the cumulative 48 hours of render time probably won't be doing my electricity bill any favours - and my power supply swiftly started to give up the ghost afterwards.

YouTube

We dedicated an insane amount of CPU and GPU cycles to show what Marvel's Spider-Man would look like running at 60fps. Bonus Killzone Shadow Fall 60fps action too!

Seeing the game play out at 60fps is an absolute treat, and perhaps gives us some idea of the path not taken by the developer. After replaying the game and revisiting the Miles Morales PS5 trailer, it's pretty clear that Insomniac decided to take its Spider-Man engine in a very different direction as opposed to simply doubling up on frame-rate. It's difficult to draw too many conclusions from what is a very short snippet of action but over and above the effects work on display - the likes of which you don't see in Spider-Man PS4 - there is the sense that the studio is taking existing technologies and amping them up, while at the same time adding new features. It's an approach that likely wouldn't be possible if the studio were looking to double frame-rate at the same time - certainly not without a ground-up revamp of the technology.

The small snippet we get of ground-level web-swinging does suggest that New York City is a significantly denser place to be than it was on PlayStation 4. Vehicle count looks higher while the amount of NPCs frequenting the streets also looks more robust than the existing game - and in both cases, the draw distance looks a lot, lot better than anything we've seen in the existing Spider-Man PS4 game. The trailer also shows that we're in the depths of winter, with snow and ice a key component of the visual make-up. It's transformative compared to the New York we saw in the first game where the closest we got to adverse weather was a pretty basic rain effect.

Insomniac has also stated in a tweet that ray tracing features found in PlayStation 5 may be used in Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales, specifying that puddles will have RT reflections. The firm has certainly shown a lot of interest in the technology based on what we saw in the trailer and gameplay footage for Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart. With that said, so little has been shown of the new game and while puddles do feature fleetingly in the teaser, they don't seem to look ray traced. Regardless, deploying RT would fit in with a strategy of using next-gen GPU power to increase fidelity as opposed to increasing frame-rate - exactly what we're seeing from Horizon Forbidden West and Ratchet and Clank.

YouTube

Hardware accelerated ray tracing is a game-changer - but does consume a lot of GPU power. Here's how that's shaking out on PS5 based on what we've seen so far.

Of course, this may not be the complete story: Bluepoint's Demon's Souls Remake follows in the footsteps of Shadow of the Colossus by offering both fidelity and performance modes. Based on our previous look at available press assets, Bluepoint may well be targeting native 4K for its 30fps mode, with 1440p resolution resolved in performance mode. Codemasters has also suggested that we may see something similar with Dirt 5 - the aim being for its performance mode to hit a staggering 120 frames per second. I'd expect to see quality/high frame-rate modes to be quite prevalent in the upcoming cross-gen transition period. While game engines still need to support the low-power AMD Jaguar CPU architecture on current-gen machines, doubling frame-rate on PS5 and Series X is an easy win. Will we see those modes on Miles Morales? I'd like to hope so but I suspect that if this was the case, Sony would have communicated it already - just as it did with Demon's Souls.

While the PS5 reveal may have dashed the hopes of gamers looking for an across-the-board 60fps mandate, I don't feel that this is the end of the story, and forcing studios to adopt 60fps for all projects would be a fundamentally bad idea. The fact we're seeing 30fps titles doesn't negate the fact that the Zen 2 architecture is a game-changer and if a developer wants to target 60fps for their projects, it's hard to believe that the CPU will be a limiting factor in the way it is on current-gen systems.

Secondly, even with the inherent CPU bottlenecks we saw on current-gen hardware, the fact is that we did see generally superior performance across the board compared to the PS3/Xbox 360 era. Not only that, but key game franchises like Battlefield and Halo transitioned from 30fps to 60fps while the arrival of engines like id Tech 6/7 and Capcom's RE engine were specifically built with 60fps in mind. Codemasters transitioned across to 60fps and The Coalition even managed to deliver Gears 5 at full frame-rate on Xbox One X. Established 60fps franchises like Gran Turismo delivered a generational leap in fidelity while improving performance over last-gen counterparts, while the debut of the IW8 engine powering Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2019 delivers another technological showpiece.

It may take time for developers to find their feet with the new systems - and there may be some disappointments along the way - but the fact is that both Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5 are more finely balanced between CPU and GPU than their predecessors, while developers have more options and fewer constraints from a hardware perspective. PC will likely remain the format of choice for high frame-rate gaming, but what Sony's PS5 showcase strongly suggests is that 30fps remains an enabler for some tremendous visual experiences - and we can't wait to see more.

[NARMAK]

I think Horizon Zero Dawn on PC proved the point regarding framerates. They're limiting themselves based on tech specs, not necessarily artistic direction.

Personally i want them to put in a performance mode with up to 120fps possible as a toggle to lock it to and let future hardware handle the grunt of making that happen. Also, it's funny that DF claim that if you double the power of a console, that increasing the FPS takes ALL that power up. That's an asinine viewpoint and easily disproved using a PC. You could take for example a game on PC with settings at 30fps and then crank it up to 60fps and it doesn't just double to performance needed from the GPUs. Inversely we know RTRT tanks FPS depending on how it's implemented which is why it seems Polyphony is using a checkerboard rendered version of RTRT from a 1080p source.

[tcripe]

For this console generation a game NEEDS to have a 60fps mode. Not in 4k, then fine. 1440p HDR 60fps is still going to look great. Just give players the option.

[heyadol]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

I think Horizon Zero Dawn on PC proved the point regarding framerates. They're limiting themselves based on tech specs, not necessarily artistic direction.

Personally i want them to put in a performance mode with up to 120fps possible as a toggle to lock it to and let future hardware handle the grunt of making that happen. Also, it's funny that DF claim that if you double the power of a console, that increasing the FPS takes ALL that power up. That's an asinine viewpoint and easily disproved using a PC. You could take for example a game on PC with settings at 30fps and then crank it up to 60fps and it doesn't just double to performance needed from the GPUs. Inversely we know RTRT tanks FPS depending on how it's implemented which is why it seems Polyphony is using a checkerboard rendered version of RTRT from a 1080p source.

I don't know if these demands scale linearly, but doubling the framerate would double the requirement on the CPU (requesting twice as many frames) plus the GPU (rendering twice as many frames); this is similar to the way 2160p is four times the size 1080p, but doesn't necessarily quadruple the system requirements and is also easily proved by your PC demonstration.

Even if doubling the framerate doesn't linearly double the processing requirements, that synergy and increased demand probably increases the thermal requirements and that is another (literal power) limit that has to be considered. Since PS5 runs at constant power and reduces the frequency to prevent exceeding the capability of the (yet to be revealed) cooling solution, maybe it is a challenge (or unreliable) to put the extra demand on the CPU+GPU since it will be dialed back by whatever measurable limit Sony defined.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by tcripe

For this console generation a game NEEDS to have a 60fps mode. Not in 4k, then fine. 1440p HDR 60fps is still going to look great. Just give players the option.

Indeed

Why even mention 120fps in your marketing if you can’t deliver 60fps.

[Zivouhr]

I would also like the option to be able to choose between more detailed graphics versus faster frame rates, especially for driving games. The difference between TDU2 on PS3 with 30 or less frames per second versus Driver SF on PS3 at 60 fps was all in the response timing, with much faster response in Driver SF (which had weaker graphics to compensate) compared to the lag and delayed input of Test Drive Unlimited 2. I like both games even so.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Derb

Indeed

Why even mention 120fps in your marketing if you can’t deliver 60fps.

I've kinda mentioned this before, but as pretty as a visual as we're starting to get and "diminishing returns" in that area, the graphics aren't at pure photorealistic levels yet and especially in motion for gaming in real time. We're probably a decade and a half away in the PC space at the top end at native 4K, RTRT and whatnot even perhaps at 60fps. That's why i've been nailed to native 4K, 120fps and letting devs super sample down images from the console if they're so intent on making 8K gaming a thing in the future. A 4K nailed on native image running all the bells and whistles imo will be far more impressive at a higher FPS to me all the way up to 120fps.

I recently played Borderlands 2 on the Handsome Collection and that's 60fps but i played it on my brothers LED LCD which is supposed to be 4K/60fps and the game didn't admittedly have the UHD texture pack installed, but it barely looked better on his 4K and in motion, the TV probably due to being LCD was horrible. So to anybody out there gaming, i would say the display will make a MASSIVE difference to your gaming experiences too.

I've been fortunate with having a plasma TV from a very solid generation that reviewed highly across the board and for 4K i'm making sure i also do the same because it makes a big difference imo. That's before you even get into any higher FPS gaming i guess.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

I've kinda mentioned this before, but as pretty as a visual as we're starting to get and "diminishing returns" in that area, the graphics aren't at pure photorealistic levels yet and especially in motion for gaming in real time. We're probably a decade and a half away in the PC space at the top end at native 4K, RTRT and whatnot even perhaps at 60fps. That's why i've been nailed to native 4K, 120fps and letting devs super sample down images from the console if they're so intent on making 8K gaming a thing in the future. A 4K nailed on native image running all the bells and whistles imo will be far more impressive at a higher FPS to me all the way up to 120fps.

I recently played Borderlands 2 on the Handsome Collection and that's 60fps but i played it on my brothers LED LCD which is supposed to be 4K/60fps and the game didn't admittedly have the UHD texture pack installed, but it barely looked better on his 4K and in motion, the TV probably due to being LCD was horrible. So to anybody out there gaming, i would say the display will make a MASSIVE difference to your gaming experiences too.

I've been fortunate with having a plasma TV from a very solid generation that reviewed highly across the board and for 4K i'm making sure i also do the same because it makes a big difference imo. That's before you even get into any higher FPS gaming i guess.

Plasma

Brave sole. I can see why OLED doesn’t concern you.

[Zivouhr]

Witcher 3 on the PS4 at times, slows down to probably 10 frames per second in the heavy woods (I think near the witches' cabin at times). The slow down affected my controller inputs and gameplay. I hope they can update that game to 60 fps.

[Talal86]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

I think Horizon Zero Dawn on PC proved the point regarding framerates. They're limiting themselves based on tech specs, not necessarily artistic direction.

Sony embarrassed their upcoming system with that Horizon trailer

not sure what were they thinking

[I KEEL YOU]

Really sad that after all that talk about increased power, all that talk about not just more teraflops, but the teraflops being used by a new upgraded architecture that uses teraflops even more efficiently than the previous generation, after all that talk about how manufacturers will be able to make games run more efficiently with lightning-fast loading times, it all still boils down to: 30 fps.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Zivouhr

Witcher 3 on the PS4 at times, slows down to probably 10 frames per second in the heavy woods (I think near the witches' cabin at times). The slow down affected my controller inputs and gameplay. I hope they can update that game to 60 fps.

I think the PS5 could potentially solve a LOT of the issues Witcher 3 had just by sheer horsepower and proper NVMe usage for loading. It will make me want fo replay that game finally for the DLC.

Originally Posted by Talal86

Sony embarrassed their upcoming system with that Horizon trailer

not sure what were they thinking

I'm not going to throw any particular devs under the bus at this stage, because whilst i am very disappointed it seems we are getting a 30fps game. There's a possibility they may have options for increased performance in anticipation of any future Pro or PS6 playing the game. Killzone Shadowfall actually shipped with an unlocked framerate and maybe here we'll see them open things up too.

I think 60fps does really make a game feel smooth and responsive. Especially 3rd person action types like Horizon and Spider-Man as well as God of War, so its disappointing so far 2 of the 3 have sequels/expansions that continue 30fps as the primary goal. To me, that says it all when you really put into perspective next gen. For all the amount of "This is so much more powerful and a leap than ANY gen we've had prior" marketing BS, the truth is they used to more actively chase 60fps yet now we're square into a glut of 30fps reveals.

What's funny to me though is, and mark my words this is going to happen. When they get an opportunity, they're going to tout 8K as the "NEW BIG THING(!)" for marketing perhaps a Pro model and so on. They wouldn't bother touting "Hey, it does 4K/60fps now for Spider-Man and Horizon II(!)

I'm hoping though that a PS5 Pro model does come. I genuinely plan to upgrade to it and increase my storage space. If only to bloody well game in 4K/60fps for PS5 games.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Talal86

Sony embarrassed their upcoming system with that Horizon trailer

not sure what were they thinking

WTF are you talking about? That trailer looked amazing and judging by the amount of views it has gotten, I really don't think the vast majority of gamers share your opinion.

[Talal86]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

WTF are you talking about? That trailer looked amazing and judging by the amount of views it has gotten, I really don't think the vast majority of gamers share your opinion.

I meant the HZD pc trailer, it’s a video form of what a pc person would list to entice people to skip the ps5 and build a pc

they list a bunch of things that the ps5 can’t apparently do. weird timing imo

[_Seth]

Wasn't this kind of obvious? Developers are always going to have to decide whether to use the extra power for framerates or graphics. It has nothing to do with the console or Sony. Hell, even some PS2 games run is 60FPS. It's about developer priorities.

Ideally we'd have options, because I'd always choose 60FPS over graphics. That way, companies get to advertise their games with footage of amazing graphics but tag on that silky smooth 60FPS is an option.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Talal86

I meant the HZD pc trailer, it’s a video form of what a pc person would list to entice people to skip the ps5 and build a pc

they list a bunch of things that the ps5 can’t apparently do. weird timing imo

Okay, thanks for the clarification! Though I'm still not sure what you mean. I saw the PC/PS4 Pro video comparison and honestly I didn't think they looked all that different from one another. What did you mean by they embarrassed themselves? Was it BECAUSE they looked so similar?

[Talal86]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Okay, thanks for the clarification! Though I'm still not sure what you mean. I saw the PC/PS4 Pro video comparison and honestly I didn't think they looked all that different from one another. What did you mean by they embarrassed themselves? Was it BECAUSE they looked so similar?

The trailer starts with listing things the ps5 can’t do, (Unlocked framerate and Graphical customization, etc..) that’s a bad look imo.

also it’s obviously a selling point if they’re using it in their official trailer. so they know people want options

sure I don’t want to have menus of options on console, but if the ps5 can’t let us pick 60fps over higher resolution, (after an official trailer using that as a selling point for another system) that’s embarrassing imo

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Okay, thanks for the clarification! Though I'm still not sure what you mean. I saw the PC/PS4 Pro video comparison and honestly I didn't think they looked all that different from one another. What did you mean by they embarrassed themselves? Was it BECAUSE they looked so similar?

I don't know which PC/PS4 Pro comparison was done, but the PC release is a whole other level of improvement across the board and i think what Talal86 meant was that you're just releasing a PC version with a framerate up to 120fps, toggled graphical settings and improvements but then are showing off a PS5 version of the sequel locked to 30fps.

There no longer becomes an argument for "creative direction" by letting people set the FPS or in the case of Ratchet & Clank, going backwards from 60fps to 30fps.

PS5 was supposed to be an evolution of the PS4 Pro really, and even then offer a generational leap by offering more than 2x the GPU performance given its RDNA2 Teraflops they're measuring against GCN. So then to end up at 30fps once again seems a little harsh when you consider the resolutions of the image before they checkerboard rendered on PS4 Pro weren't too much below native 4K. At the end of the day, i think devs are showing once again the compromises that are being chosen to bring their visions for the games on console. Which is also why i'm really hoping for a toggle to performance settings on resolution and framerates for next gen games so future hardware with more power can run it even better.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Talal86

The trailer starts with listing things the ps5 can’t do, (Unlocked framerate and Graphical customization, etc..) that’s a bad look imo.

also it’s obviously a selling point if they’re using it in their official trailer. so they know people want options

sure I don’t want to have menus of options on console, but if the ps5 can’t let us pick 60fps over higher resolution, (after an official trailer using that as a selling point for another system) that’s embarrassing imo

How do you know this though? Don't you think you're being a little presumptuous until we actually experience HZD for ourselves on PS5? Besides, HZD HAS an unlocked frame option. Why wouldn't the PS5 take advantage? As far as graphical customization, isn't that the case for pretty much all console games vs PC? HZD has a performance mode and a graphics mode. Really that's all I want for console games. I don't want a plethora of graphic sliders to have to contend with on console.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

I don't know which PC/PS4 Pro comparison was done, but the PC release is a whole other level of improvement across the board and i think what Talal86 meant was that you're just releasing a PC version with a framerate up to 120fps, toggled graphical settings and improvements but then are showing off a PS5 version of the sequel locked to 30fps.

There no longer becomes an argument for "creative direction" by letting people set the FPS or in the case of Ratchet & Clank, going backwards from 60fps to 30fps.

PS5 was supposed to be an evolution of the PS4 Pro really, and even then offer a generational leap by offering more than 2x the GPU performance given its RDNA2 Teraflops they're measuring against GCN. So then to end up at 30fps once again seems a little harsh when you consider the resolutions of the image before they checkerboard rendered on PS4 Pro weren't too much below native 4K. At the end of the day, i think devs are showing once again the compromises that are being chosen to bring their visions for the games on console. Which is also why i'm really hoping for a toggle to performance settings on resolution and framerates for next gen games so future hardware with more power can run it even better.

But the flaw in your argument is you are comparing a current gen game running on PC with a next gen game running on console. I could understand it if the sequel was using the exact same form of the Decima engine with exact same assets as the first game. But you're kind of unfairly glossing over the fact that the sequel is a bigger world, pushes way more triangles, has more advanced graphical features with lighting and textures, probably more advanced AI, underwater sequences, flying sequences, more complex looking robot animals, etc. Yet all you're focusing on is frames and resolution as if none of the design improvements that are in the sequel should have an impact on the two. You're basically saying "Frames and resolution at all costs!!" Well the developers may just not see it that way NARMAK. They may simply see at as "how far can we maximize the PS5's capabilities at a 30fps budget?" That's why I said weeks ago that frames and resolution on console does not apply in the same manner as it does on PC. Those are DESIGN choices the publishers/developers make. Consoles are not PC's that the end user can just "brute force" to whatever resolution and framerate they want.