RMS/Total Power Specs discrepancy YAMMY RX-V 863 HTR 6180

[Collectors Set]

This issue was raised at the bottom of another thread but got no traction because for one its not really placed in the correct forum. But I am hoping someone can come up with some insight.

If you look at the most current Yamaha RX-V models which are the 863 and 663's, there is a significant jump in price between the two. According to the Yammy specs, the RMS power at interval levels 20Hz-20kHz on the 663 is 95W per channel or 665W total and on the 863 its 105W per channel or 735W total. Makes perfect sense to me and I can understand the jump in price since you are picking up nearly 100W of additional total output power on the 863 model.

However on their identical counterparts in the HTR line; the 6180 and the 6160 -- the HTR 6180 has the same total power rating of 735W as the RX-V863. But for some reason unlike the RX-V663, they rate the HTR 6160 at 20kHz @ 95W per channel and additionally with 1kHz output and assign it with values of 110W per channel with an overall total output of 735W. Now I understand that the 1 kHz level itself may be just a derivative of sorts or a different look so to speak and all relative, but in the HTR case, the 6160 and the 6180 models have identical bottom line total output power ratings of 735W.

So what is the deal then?? Does the HTR 6160 in fact have the same total power rating of 735W as the superior $400+ more HTR 6180 and the RX-V863 models ------ which is nearly 100W more of total power than its counterpart equivalent RX-V 663 at only 665W

[Yeha-Noha]

I would say that the HTR 6160 has the same rated power as stated in the V663 manual. That would clear up the issue right there. The mystery is how did Yamaha come up with 735W for the 6160 and 665W for the V663? I don't know if I can really solve that mystery but I'll take a stab at it.

I own the V663. I think it's fair to say the the V663 and the HTR-6160 are identical in both features and specifications. I downloaded the 6160 manual. It is 99.98765% a clone of my V663 manual word for word page for page. The only differences I found was on page 124 under the Audio Section and on page 125 under General. Which is really weird why they would differ so much in this section is beyond me. Power ratings are a nightmare or a real jungle for me. However, I think it's also fair to say that if any specifications are identical between the two then we got it solved. Take a look at this:

Audio Section:

V663:
• Dynamic Power (IHF)
Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 Ω ..................................... 135/165/195/240 W

• Maximum Output Power [U.K., Europe, Russia and Asia models]
Speaker impedance setting: 8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω
.................................................. ........................................ 145 W

• Dynamic Headroom [U.S.A. and Canada models]
8 Ω .................................................. ..................................... 1.4 dB

• IEC Output Power [U.K., Europe, Russia, and Asia models]
Front L/R, 1 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 Ω ................................... 105 W

HTR 6160:
• Dynamic Power (IHF)
Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 Ω ..................................... 135/165/195/240 W

• Maximum Output Power [Russia model]
Speaker impedance setting: 8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω
.................................................. ........................................ 145 W


• Dynamic Headroom [U.S.A. and Canada models]
8 Ω .................................................. ..................................... 1.4 dB

• IEC Output Power [Russia model]
Front L/R, 1 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 Ω ................................... 105 W

General:

V663:
• Power Consumption
[U.S.A. and Canada models] ................................. 400 W/500 VA
[Other models] .................................................. .................. 440 W

HTR 6160:
• Power Consumption
[U.S.A. and Canada models] ................................. 400 W/500 VA
[Russia model] .................................................. .................. 440 W

Because they share many specifications in common, both models therefore have equivalent power ratings. It's weird that the 6160 manual leaves out the other geographical locations, but I still consider these identical in every respect. Since Yamaha considers these to be two different products, the testing was probably done independently of each other and thus a little differently.

Ok now here we go taking the IEC spec: 105 x 7 = 735 Watts for both the 663 and 6160 .

But, what's this?: 95 x 7 = 665 Watts

Ok, from the short duration tone burst testing for the 663:

• Minimum RMS Output Power for Front, Center, Surround,
Surround back
20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 Ω .................................... 95 W

That's were I think the confusion started from, simply tone bursts across the total audio spectrum (663) versus a single burst at 1 kHz (6160). If I were to pick an honest rating for both AVRs, it would be the 665 Watts because that was the more difficult test and and a more realistic one for watching movies. Yamaha's advertising discrepancy is derived from two totally different testing standards for each model. But I think I am right in that what goes for the 663 goes for the 6160.

PS. If one has fairly efficient speakers, say 89 db spl at one meter or better, I doubt that the slightly higher power output of the 863/6180 is worth the jump in price. What I would instead look at is what features you are getting for the price jump beside power output?

[MPDIEHL]

You do understand that this is all a moot point...
Not all amps are created equal. Even when the base numbers match.
The amps in the HTR series differ form those in the RXV and to carry it further the RXV 1800 and 3800 are a completely diff build from the other RXV.
The Power spec that actually matters is very rarely shown because it looks "Too Low" and that is power output with All Channels Driven.
These 100+/- watt receivers will pretty much all cap out around 50-60 watts per channel when all are running together.
Who cares what the peak burst output of any single channel is.
To the average person More is Better rules what we buy, not always a good thought.

a second thought... do the math 400watts AC draw the best amps in the world are not 100% efficient but lets use 90% as our base. 90% of 400 is 360. 360 watts od available power over 7 channels comes to 51.43 watts. No amp made creates a larger output than it uses.
The quality of the amp and size and build of the power supply also figure in to this mess.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by MPDIEHL

You do understand that this is all a moot point...
Not all amps are created equal. Even when the base numbers match.
The amps in the HTR series differ form those in the RXV and to carry it further the RXV 1800 and 3800 are a completely diff build from the other RXV.
The Power spec that actually matters is very rarely shown because it looks "Too Low" and that is power output with All Channels Driven.
These 100+/- watt receivers will pretty much all cap out around 50-60 watts per channel when all are running together.
Who cares what the peak burst output of any single channel is.
To the average person More is Better rules what we buy, not always a good thought.

a second thought... do the math 400watts AC draw the best amps in the world are not 100% efficient but lets use 90% as our base. 90% of 400 is 360. 360 watts od available power over 7 channels comes to 51.43 watts. No amp made creates a larger output than it uses.
The quality of the amp and size and build of the power supply also figure in to this mess.

Are you saying there are real differences between the V663 and HTR 6160?
If so, what are they? My apologies to the OP for going off topic.

[Collectors Set]

Originally Posted by MPDIEHL

You do understand that this is all a moot point...
Not all amps are created equal. Even when the base numbers match.
The amps in the HTR series differ form those in the RXV and to carry it further the RXV 1800 and 3800 are a completely diff build from the other RXV.
The Power spec that actually matters is very rarely shown because it looks "Too Low" and that is power output with All Channels Driven.
These 100+/- watt receivers will pretty much all cap out around 50-60 watts per channel when all are running together.
Who cares what the peak burst output of any single channel is.
To the average person More is Better rules what we buy, not always a good thought.

a second thought... do the math 400watts AC draw the best amps in the world are not 100% efficient but lets use 90% as our base. 90% of 400 is 360. 360 watts od available power over 7 channels comes to 51.43 watts. No amp made creates a larger output than it uses.
The quality of the amp and size and build of the power supply also figure in to this mess.

I am following you on the math and your logic. I just was having an issue in how to quantify a $400 jump in price when you basically have two receivers with the same total output rating. Not all amps are indeed created equal.

[Collectors Set]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

Are you saying there are real differences between the V663 and HTR 6160?
If so, what are they? My apologies to the OP for going off topic.

I appreciate you taking time and your contribution in sharing your calcuation/specs from the manual. This really was kind of baffling because when you break it down it would only make sense in terms of price point jump that these two receivers are in fact separated by 100W of total output just like their counterparts in the other line. That 1Khz rating is skewed and I do get the whole "math" concept in terms of when you have all channels going and the max might be 50W per channel, etc. When you have a bottom line price difference of $400 between two products, there has to be a significant difference in terms of performance/power and not just whether one has a couple more HDMI ports, etc.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by MPDIEHL

You do understand that this is all a moot point...
Not all amps are created equal. Even when the base numbers match.
The amps in the HTR series differ form those in the RXV and to carry it further the RXV 1800 and 3800 are a completely diff build from the other RXV.
The Power spec that actually matters is very rarely shown because it looks "Too Low" and that is power output with All Channels Driven.
These 100+/- watt receivers will pretty much all cap out around 50-60 watts per channel when all are running together.
Who cares what the peak burst output of any single channel is.
To the average person More is Better rules what we buy, not always a good thought.

a second thought... do the math 400watts AC draw the best amps in the world are not 100% efficient but lets use 90% as our base. 90% of 400 is 360. 360 watts od available power over 7 channels comes to 51.43 watts. No amp made creates a larger output than it uses.
The quality of the amp and size and build of the power supply also figure in to this mess.

That is not correct. The internal componentry used between the RX-V and HTR models is identical. They are in fact, the same receivers. I have e-mailed Yamaha directly on this issue, and they verified for me that the corresponding models between the HTR line and RX-V line are identical in every way, including internal power supplies, circuitry, and amplifiers. There have been only a couple of instances there have been differences between HTR and RX-V models, but Yamaha has gotten away from internal changes due to cost considerations.

According to Yamaha, the only product differentiators between the lines include the model numbers, Gold lettering on the HTR series with white on the RX-V line, and the power rating measurement standard used between the models. Both model lines were originally created in order to manage two forms of distribution - brick and mortar hi-fi specialty shops (RX-V) and big box store / internet sales (HTR). The power rating differential usage has slid a little bit, but traditionally the 20Hz - 20 kHz rating had been reserved for use with the RX-V line, while the misleading 1kHz rating was used by the HTR line against budget minded competitors.

The HTR-6180 is shown on Yamaha's web site with identical power ratings to the RX-V863. It doesn't appear the HTR-6180 was given the 1kHz rating. The HTR-6160 on the other hand was given the 1kHz rating, but it also shows the 20 Hz to 20 kHz total power rating of 735 watts, which is higher than the total power rating of 665 for the RX-V663. The only thing I can think of is that the THD must have been higher on the HTR-6160 to achieve the 735 watt rating differential over the RX-V663. Unfortunately, Yamaha isn't publishing THD numbers anymore, but historically they have been very low. I think the most telling thing is the weight of the receivers. The RX-V663 and HTR-6160 both tip the scales at 32 lbs. The RX-V863 and HTR-6180 both weigh in at 34 lbs, which is indicative of the beefier power supply and amplification sections.

I've owned several Yamaha receivers throughout the years, and I typically buy from the HTR line instead of the RX-V line. If I was buying one of the flagship models - the RX-Z11, RX-V3800, or RX-V1800 - my only choice in the US would be to buy them as RX-V (or Z) models. I typically find I can find better deals on the HTR counterparts, so I've gone that route. Plus, I find the gold lettering on the HTR line to look better asthetically than the white lettering on the RX-V line. Not that I'd base a purchase off of that, but it's an added little bonus.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Collectors Set

I appreciate you taking time and your contribution in sharing your calcuation/specs from the manual. This really was kind of baffling because when you break it down it would only make sense in terms of price point jump that these two receivers are in fact separated by 100W of total output just like their counterparts in the other line. That 1Khz rating is skewed and I do get the whole "math" concept in terms of when you have all channels going and the max might be 50W per channel, etc. When you have a bottom line price difference of $400 between two products, there has to be a significant difference in terms of performance/power and not just whether one has a couple more HDMI ports, etc.

Yes that's a good point. My suggestion is to buy the 863 or HTR version, and test it out in your HT system to hear what $400 more sounds like. Some Yamaha dealers do have a 30 day return policy in case the customer is not happy with the buy. I personally feel that one can spend a little for good enjoyable sound (low end big bang for the buck) or exponentially more just to get smaller improvements in sound or performance(the high end). You have to decide if it's significant enough to spend $400 more. I really am happy with the sound and performance of my V663 though. I have no doubt that the 863 is better. But, is it really worth it?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

Both model lines were originally created in order to manage two forms of distribution - brick and mortar hi-fi specialty shops (RX-V) and big box store / internet sales (HTR).

+1........I've been trying to get this point across in many posts, but no one wants to take my word for it. I think it stems from the fact that a product purchased at a "high-end" dealer MUST be better.

I'm in Canada and my HTR6190B is the same unit as the RXV1800B. I purchased the HTR, because I was able to get a better deal. The list on it when it was released last year was $1,499...I picked it up at Future Shop for $1,099......that's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Oops...didn't use the QUOTE(s) properly, by you get the point.

[kingofgrills]

I'm envious. the HTR-6190 has not been made available in the U.S. Our only choice is the RX-V1800. It is coming down in price though. I just saw it in a Video Only store for $799.

[Collectors Set]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

I'm envious. the HTR-6190 has not been made available in the U.S. Our only choice is the RX-V1800. It is coming down in price though. I just saw it in a Video Only store for $799.

WOW! That is an absolute ridiculous price, especially for a store with a physical location where you can walk in. Amazon has the 1800's listed at $1199.

I have been debating about picking up a 1700 or 2700 online because the prices have come down now nearly 60%. But my only concern is that they have been sitting around for so long and are they really "factory sealed" new; they are also HDMI 1.2 - but going PCM exclusive is not all bad with a capable bluray player, but last but not least, some of these exclusive online wholesalers have really lame return policies. Forget about having to fork out the shipping costs, some of them will not even take something back defective and you are on your own immediately dealing with the manufacturer. When you consider the potential amount of grief and hassle, I do not know if trying to save a couple hundred bucks is really worth it in the end, but in the case of the Yammy 2700 for instance, its really appealing because an amazon 3rd party seller has one for like $900 off the MSRP price

I have heard about those Video Only stores and that they really rock - lucky you. Oh and thanks for your detailed response in this thread.

[Collectors Set]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

Yes that's a good point. My suggestion is to buy the 863 or HTR version, and test it out in your HT system to hear what $400 more sounds like. Some Yamaha dealers do have a 30 day return policy in case the customer is not happy with the buy. I personally feel that one can spend a little for good enjoyable sound (low end big bang for the buck) or exponentially more just to get smaller improvements in sound or performance(the high end). You have to decide if it's significant enough to spend $400 more. I really am happy with the sound and performance of my V663 though. I have no doubt that the 863 is better. But, is it really worth it?

Exactly. I really would only consider the 863 for a really really good deal. But to spend retail price and fork out $400 more, you mind as well get the 1800 at that point since you are in the neighborhood. BestBuy has the 863's for $929.99 & Amazon $899.99

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Collectors Set

Exactly. I really would only consider the 863 for a really really good deal. But to spend retail price and fork out $400 more, you mind as well get the 1800 at that point since you are in the neighborhood. BestBuy has the 863's for $929.99 & Amazon $899.99

To me the 863 is an overpriced 663. Both receivers weigh the same, 26 lbs.
See the comparison chart at:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/compare/De...p_items=567571

The comparison is too similar to justify paying $400 more for the 863. The power supply for the 863 can't be that much heavier than the 663.

Now take a look at the 1800. It weighs significantly more, 11.1 lbs more than the 663 or 863. I would bet that much weight difference is due to a much bigger power supply.

I suggest that if you have the money to buy the 863 at MSRP, then go for the 1800. It's definitely worth paying a little more because you are really getting more and stepping up into a higher class, that you know truely delivers high power output with low distortion. IMHO, the 863 is in the same class as the 663 and not worth the extra $400. Avoid it.

[kingofgrills]

The only things the 863 adds to the mix over the 663 are:

1080p upscaling for all video sources
10 additional watts per channel (105 x 7 vs. 95 x 7)
HD Radio tuner
1 more HDMI input
SRS Circle Surround II decoder

As had been noted previously, the weight for both models is identical, so I wouldn't expect much of a difference, if any between the power supply / amplification sections of these receivers. Typically when Yamaha has amplification differences, there is a noticable difference in weight of at least a couple of pounds.

If the features listed above are important for you as a buyer, then they might be worth the $400 price differential to you. Personally, I was set on buying the 863, but I'm not sure now. I reviewed both side-by-side a couple of weeks ago, and now I'm leaning toward the 663 or maybe the 1800 if I can still find a good deal on it. I would buy the 863 as well, but it would have to be at a significant savings over the retail price.