Subwoofer Crossover Question

[Tall Dog]

I have a Yamaha RX-V3800 receiver and a Velodyne VX-10 Subwoofer.

I have a question about running the receivers YPAO setup program for the speakers.

The subwoofer manual says that when you run the Receiver mic program, to set the sub's volume at about 1/4. Other than that, it says to follow the receiver's directions.

The receivers directions say to set the sub's crossover frequency to "max", which for the Velodyne is 200mhz.

So, I run the setup program. When the receiver is done, and I look at the settings, it has the receivers crossover set to 200mhz(which is what I set the receiver to before running the test).

When I watch a movie, everything sounds pretty good to my untrained ear. My question is, most of you guys say the sub's crossover frequency should be 80 mhz usually.

Should I change the sub's crossover frequency to 80mhz, or is my receiver handling things internally to provide the best crossover?

Thanks

[musicman1999]

Would need to know what type of speakers you have, brand name and model number.That cut off seems way to high.

bill

[ejcasper]

I agree. That setting of 200 is way too high. What musicman 1999 said is accurate. To know what would be a better range for a crossover setting it is important to know other speakers being used. Reason being if the fronts, for instance, can handle some bass clearly and accurately, then you wouldn't want all of the lower frequencies going to the sub only. Additionally, threre are loads of sounds including deep voices and the like that could be sent through the sub causing a muddy sound as oppossed to limiting the sub to frequencies under say 80-120.

[emorbius]

Originally Posted by Tall Dog

I have a Yamaha RX-V3800 receiver and a Velodyne VX-10 Subwoofer.

I have a question about running the receivers YPAO setup program for the speakers.

The subwoofer manual says that when you run the Receiver mic program, to set the sub's volume at about 1/4. Other than that, it says to follow the receiver's directions.

The receivers directions say to set the sub's crossover frequency to "max", which for the Velodyne is 200mhz.

So, I run the setup program. When the receiver is done, and I look at the settings, it has the receivers crossover set to 200mhz(which is what I set the receiver to before running the test).

When I watch a movie, everything sounds pretty good to my untrained ear. My question is, most of you guys say the sub's crossover frequency should be 80 mhz usually.

Should I change the sub's crossover frequency to 80mhz, or is my receiver handling things internally to provide the best crossover?

Thanks

The upper range of 200mhz (say from 125-200) can drone a bit and your sub woofer won't be all that efficient at handling those frequencies. 80 is a good cutoff point and will give the low end a tighter sound. That being said the best thing is to just listen and go with what sounds best. If it sounds too boomy or rumles too much lower the crossover point. If there isn't enough low end or there seems to be dropout where the lows just disappear at a slightly higher frequency then raise it up.
I used to do a lot of pro sound reinforcement (which was more band related then movie sound track) but I set the crossover on my system for the lows at 125hz. That gave it a tight punchy low end. If it was between 125-250 it sounded too boomy or rumbly.
One final thing is the capacity of your main speakers. If they handle lows pretty well then setting the sub woofer low shouldn't be be a problem. If they don't then you might notice a distinct fall-off above the sub woofer crossover and you might have to set it higher.

Bob

[Tall Dog]

Originally Posted by musicman1999

Would need to know what type of speakers you have, brand name and model number.That cut off seems way to high.

bill

Hi Bill, the following speakers are all Yamaha and are all 6-ohms with a Nominal Input of 30w and a Maximum input of 100w.

Fronts-NS-AP6500F 6.5" woofer + 3/4" dome tweeter
Freq range-55hz-35khz
Sensitivity-85db
Crossover freq-4khz

Center-NS-AP6500C 3" woofer x 2 + 3/4" dome tweeter
Freq range-100hz-35khz
Sensitivity-82db
Crossover freq-5khz

Surrounds-NS-AP6500C 3" woofer x 1 + 1/2" balanced dome tweeter
Freq range-100hz-35khz
Sensitivity-82db
Crossover freq-5khz

I also have two Bose 161's that I am using as rear speakers. They have 2-2 1/2" wide range drivers per speaker, rated 50W IEC; compatible with amplifiers or receivers rated 10-100 watts per channel, rated 4-8 ohms.

[Tall Dog]

Another thing, I don't know if it makes a difference, but the receiver's setup program set my fronts to "large". Per reading this forum, I changed the fronts to "small" like most of you suggest. They only have one 6.5" woofer and a 3/4" tweeter.

[Tall Dog]

Originally Posted by ejcasper

I agree. That setting of 200 is way too high. What musicman 1999 said is accurate. To know what would be a better range for a crossover setting it is important to know other speakers being used. Reason being if the fronts, for instance, can handle some bass clearly and accurately, then you wouldn't want all of the lower frequencies going to the sub only. Additionally, threre are loads of sounds including deep voices and the like that could be sent through the sub causing a muddy sound as oppossed to limiting the sub to frequencies under say 80-120.

The receiver does set the LFE sounds to go to the Sub "and" the Fronts if that makes any difference?

Thanks

[gearyt]

Originally Posted by Tall Dog

Another thing, I don't know if it makes a difference, but the receiver's setup program set my fronts to "large". Per reading this forum, I changed the fronts to "small" like most of you suggest. They only have one 6.5" woofer and a 3/4" tweeter.

Setting to large, will send lows to the speakers, setting to small, will cut off the lower stuff

Small is the correct answer for you

[blurayisking]

Take the subwoofer setting out of the equation by simply setting the receiver. If you are able to adjust the receiver crossover then I would suggest 80 ~ 100 HZ. In this case, as long as the subwoofer is set to a bit higher than 100 HZ to allow for filter roll-off, you'll be good to go because now your receiver controls what is passed to the subwoofer. You could even set the subwoofer to maximum if you wish because only up to 100 HZ is passed. If you cannot set the receiver, get the spec (probably 100 HZ) and set the subwoofer to wide open if you wish or at least 125 HZ. Try a couple of settings on the subwoofer to see if you can hear a difference in the amount of bass output.

Also, be sure to select the correct phasing on the subwoofer because that is important to maximize bass output.

[musicman1999]

Thats right, set them to small for sure.I don't know much about your receiver but i think it has an adjustable crossover, that is you can set the front level differently than the rest. If so set the front to 80 and the rest to 100, if not set all to 80.


bill

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by Tall Dog

I have a Yamaha RX-V3800 receiver and a Velodyne VX-10 Subwoofer.

I have a question about running the receivers YPAO setup program for the speakers.

The subwoofer manual says that when you run the Receiver mic program, to set the sub's volume at about 1/4. Other than that, it says to follow the receiver's directions.

The receivers directions say to set the sub's crossover frequency to "max", which for the Velodyne is 200mhz.

So, I run the setup program. When the receiver is done, and I look at the settings, it has the receivers crossover set to 200mhz(which is what I set the receiver to before running the test).

When I watch a movie, everything sounds pretty good to my untrained ear. My question is, most of you guys say the sub's crossover frequency should be 80 mhz usually.

Should I change the sub's crossover frequency to 80mhz, or is my receiver handling things internally to provide the best crossover?

Thanks

Actually, it sounds like you applied the crossover settings backward, and set the Yamaha receiver subwoofer crossover to 200 Hz. Yamaha receivers manage the sub crossover point internally. In order to not conflict with the sub's crossover settings, change the settings on the subwoofer itself, not in the receiver, to 200 Hz.

Your Yamaha receiver internally will have subwoofer settings, typically around 40 to 80 Hz. Try adjusting the receiver sub crossover setting to the lowest point you can, and that will depend on the capabilities of your speakers (full range, mini-satellites, etc.) The lower the subwoofer crossover setting, the less chance there are of having the sub sound directional. Here's a simple check for you. In your seating position, if you can close your eyes and point out the physical location of the sub based on its output, it's not optimally set. You shouldn't be able to locate it.

[BluCheez]

I've read through most of this thread, and I have enough to go on to do some experimenting... I would however like some of your thoughts on my setup. My Yamaha RX-V3800's YPAO set my fronts, centers to large, and my side surrounds to small.

Here is what I have (all Paradigm):

Fronts: Monitor 9; Low Frequency Extension 39 Hz (DIN); Frequency Response: ±2 dB from 51 Hz - 20 kHz.

Center: Monitor CC-290; Low Frequency Extension 46 Hz (DIN); Frequency Response: ±2 dB from 80 Hz - 20 kHz

Surrounds: ADP-190; Low Frequency Extension 80 Hz (DIN); Frequency Response: ±2 dB from 110 Hz - 20 kHz | (reverberant soundfield).

Subwoofer: PS-1000; 10 inch woofer; Low Frequency Extension 22 Hz (DIN); Subwoofer Cutoff Frequency Variable 50 Hz - 150 Hz.

So, if I could get you thoughts on speaker size and crossover frequency I'd appreciate it. The AVR manual also suggests: "If your subwoofer can adjust the output volume and the crossover frequency, set the volume to about half way (or slightly less) and set the crossover frequency to the maximum (150 Hz). I have done this. How does this setting on the sub jive with the crossover setting that I can adjust on the AVR? Do they conflict?

One more thing. I have the "bass out" option of just the sub or "both" fronts and sub. Thoughts?

Thanks so much.

[jomari]

How does this setting on the sub jive with the crossover setting that I can adjust on the AVR? Do they conflict?

-- they should work hand in hand actually. when you determine the crossover setting on the reciever, it determines the 'general number' (lets say 60hz) as to what frequencies will go to the subwoofer. when i mentioned general number, we have to reconsider that crossover settings are not like a physical brick wall, and that there would be rolloff points to consider.

unless you can set your speakers crossovers INDIVIDUALLY, try setting your speakers to
Setup A
Small
Crossover at 80hz,
Subwoofer ONLY (no fronts)
Subwoofers crossover at 60Hz (enough to consider he rollover point)

Setup B
Fronts at Large
Everything else Small
Crossover at 60Hz
Subwoofer both fronts and sub
Subwoofer crossover at 60hz as well.

Again, we cannot definitively describe or tell you what would be the best setup for you. You, your ears, and a SPL meter can determine what suites YOUR taste. We can always give you recommendations, but ultimately, you are in control.

These are parameters, not rules to follow. Good luck.

[BluCheez]

Originally Posted by jomari

How does this setting on the sub jive with the crossover setting that I can adjust on the AVR? Do they conflict?

-- they should work hand in hand actually. when you determine the crossover setting on the reciever, it determines the 'general number' (lets say 60hz) as to what frequencies will go to the subwoofer. when i mentioned general number, we have to reconsider that crossover settings are not like a physical brick wall, and that there would be rolloff points to consider.

unless you can set your speakers crossovers INDIVIDUALLY, try setting your speakers to
Setup A
Small
Crossover at 80hz,
Subwoofer ONLY (no fronts)
Subwoofers crossover at 60Hz (enough to consider he rollover point)

Setup B
Fronts at Large
Everything else Small
Crossover at 60Hz
Subwoofer both fronts and sub
Subwoofer crossover at 60hz as well.

Again, we cannot definitively describe or tell you what would be the best setup for you. You, your ears, and a SPL meter can determine what suites YOUR taste. We can always give you recommendations, but ultimately, you are in control.

These are parameters, not rules to follow. Good luck.

Thanks. This is starting to make more sence to me. I'm trying Setup A for a while. The only crossover that I can set is the Bass crossover, so I put this at 60Hz. So far, as I'm listening to I Robot, everything sounds good.

Wait a minute... are you saying I should set the Bass crossover on the AVR to 80Hz and set the dial on the sub to 60Hz? Why wouldn't you want to set the dial on the sub to max? One person wrote that this simply opens up the sub to more possibilities. Man... a thought I was starting to figure this out.

Another thing I could use some advice on is the Phase Alignment. I messed around a litte with the dial on the sub, but I'm not really sure what I'm listening for. Any tips? Is an SPL meter a worthwhile investment?

[jomari]

im sorry, i meant to set the crossover on the sub at 80 too. better yet, throw in yet another setup, using the same details as setup a but jacking the subwoofers crossover to 200hz, letting your reciever do the filtering, and the crossover take anything that rolls over/under 80hz.

phase alignment is when your either running the sub 'in phase' with your speakers, or 'out of phase'... heres a great description of how to perfect your settings with phase alignment in the picture...

There's a sure-fire technique for getting a subwoofer in phase with the main speakers. First, reverse the red and black speaker leads going to your left and right speakers. Play a test tone at the crossover frequency (you can find tones on most test CDs) and have someone sit while you adjust the phase control. Turn the phase control until the person in the seat hears the least amount of bass. Return the speaker leads to their correct polarity and the sub is perfectly dialed-in.

By reversing the red and black leads on your speaker, you are putting them out of phase with the sub. When you hear the least bass, the main speakers and the sub are maximally out of phase. When you return the speaker leads to their correct position, the sub and main speakers are maximally in-phase.

It is much easier to dial-in a maximum null than a maximum peak

spl meters are definitely a worthwhile investment if you plan to keep on studying more about room acoustics. not only do you get accurate readings, but your not 'eyeballing' what you percieve to be the best for your room.