10$ billion loss for real?

[Mrbrownst0ne]

panasonic seem to be doing so good with the tv's atleast. Read this sad topic though. http://sync.sympatico.ca/news/conten...e&pagenumber=2

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

panasonic seem to be doing so good with the tv's atleast. Read this sad topic though. http://sync.sympatico.ca/news/conten...e&pagenumber=2

In the rush to market share, all of these companies have decreased their own margins as well as the margins of retailers to the point where almost no one is making money anymore, leaving the markets to cheap Chinese manufacturers and e-commerce vendors, who can work on tiny margins.

In addition, the Japanese manufacturers have gotten killed because the U.S. is still one of their largest markets, but we've (obviously) been going through this bad economy. You see big numbers of units getting moved on days like Black Friday, but most of those are inexplicably below cost (although that hurts the retailers, not the manufacturers). But the other factor is that the U.S. dollar is still very weak against the Yen, even as it's gained strength against the UK Pound and the Euro. In 2007, a US dollar bought 120 Yen. Today it buys only 77 Yen, a 36% decrease. The Japanese have eaten most of that for consumer products because the weak economy couldn't stand a 36% price increase.

Also, the Japanese conglomerates have become notoriously inefficient. They've lost focused and they're stuck with tens of thousand of employees even though so much manufacturing is now done in China, India, Singapore and Thailand. Compare them to an Apple, which has margins that these Japanese companies can only fantasize.

The other factor is that the HDTV business has matured. Most people who are going to make the conversion from analog tube TVs have made it. 3D was all about trying to get people to replace their HDTV. That didn't work so well, so connected TVs are the big push. That will be followed by glasses-free 3D and eventually by 4K. The manufacturers are looking for anything that will get people to start replacing their TVs.

The problem for the Japanese is that the Koreans are eating their lunch. Samsung and LG take a combined 33% share of the market.

And although I personally think Apple is making a mistake by their (rumored) entry into this market, their success rate is so high, even if they take only 10% of the market after three years, it's going to be high margin and it's going to hurt the other manufacturers.

I have a feeling that some of the Japanese companies will effectively leave the TV business. They'll still have products with their names on them, but they'll be OEM'd or licensed. Or we'll see major consolidation. This is what has happened in the major appliance industry: most major appliances in the U.S. are actually made by Whirlpool, which now owns Kitchen Aid, Admiral, Amana, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef and Maytag. They also make the products sold at Ikea, much of Kenmore and a few models for Themador. The competition is Frigidaire, which also makes Electrolux for the U.S. market (and some Kenmore). Besides them, there's LG and Viking/Subzero, but the latter only makes the super high-end (the refrigerator is $8K).

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

In the rush to market share, all of these companies have decreased their own margins as well as the margins of retailers to the point where almost no one is making money anymore, leaving the markets to cheap Chinese manufacturers and e-commerce vendors, who can work on tiny margins.

In addition, the Japanese manufacturers have gotten killed because the U.S. is still one of their largest markets, but we've (obviously) been going through this bad economy. You see big numbers of units getting moved on days like Black Friday, but most of those are inexplicably below cost (although that hurts the retailers, not the manufacturers). But the other factor is that the U.S. dollar is still very weak against the Yen, even as it's gained strength against the UK Pound and the Euro. In 2007, a US dollar bought 120 Yen. Today it buys only 77 Yen, a 36% decrease. The Japanese have eaten most of that for consumer products because the weak economy couldn't stand a 36% price increase.

Also, the Japanese conglomerates have become notoriously inefficient. They've lost focused and they're stuck with tens of thousand of employees even though so much manufacturing is now done in China, India, Singapore and Thailand. Compare them to an Apple, which has margins that these Japanese companies can only fantasize.

The other factor is that the HDTV business has matured. Most people who are going to make the conversion from analog tube TVs have made it. 3D was all about trying to get people to replace their HDTV. That didn't work so well, so connected TVs are the big push. That will be followed by glasses-free 3D and eventually by 4K. The manufacturers are looking for anything that will get people to start replacing their TVs.

The problem for the Japanese is that the Koreans are eating their lunch. Samsung and LG take a combined 33% share of the market.

And although I personally think Apple is making a mistake by their (rumored) entry into this market, their success rate is so high, even if they take only 10% of the market after three years, it's going to be high margin and it's going to hurt the other manufacturers.

I have a feeling that some of the Japanese companies will effectively leave the TV business. They'll still have products with their names on them, but they'll be OEM'd or licensed. Or we'll see major consolidation. This is what has happened in the major appliance industry: most major appliances in the U.S. are actually made by Whirlpool, which now owns Kitchen Aid, Admiral, Amana, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef and Maytag. They also make the products sold at Ikea, much of Kenmore and a few models for Themador. The competition is Frigidaire, which also makes Electrolux for the U.S. market (and some Kenmore). Besides them, there's LG and Viking/Subzero, but the latter only makes the super high-end (the refrigerator is $8K).

Funny you mentioned that with Sony's tv division getting murdered.

[bobby25]

NO to overpriced Jap products..

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by bobby25

NO to overpriced Jap products..

I would contend that they're not overpriced at all. It's just that with practically slave labor in China (factory workers make about $130 a month and many have to put in 60 hours a week), the Chinese can do it cheaper.

TVs are less expensive than they've ever been except perhaps at the very end of the CRT era.

I paid around $700 for a high-end Sony 19" TV around 1985. That's $1500 in 2011 dollars, which today gets you at least an HDTV 46" set filled with features.

We've been long spoiled by cheap Chinese manufacturing. The fact that you can buy a DVD-R drive for around the price of a high-quality pizza is simply incredulous. I've seen sales for Sandisk 8GB Flash drives for $10. In December of 1981, Creative Computing magazine predicted that the "price of 128 Kilobytes of memory would fall below $100 in the near future". At that rate, 8GB would cost $6.25 million. And now it costs just $10. And the manufacturer, distributor and retailer all make some profit. That is amazing.

Furthermore, as I've noted above, the U.S. Dollar has decreased in value against the Yen by 36% since 2007. So anything that has the same price today as it did five years ago from a Japanese manufacturer is essentially 36% cheaper. Don't blame Japan for that - blame U.S. monetary policy under both Democrats and Republicans who have weakened the dollar in part to encourage exports.

[Sonny]

I just hope panny is not doing the O'l pioneer move... Having number one gone is bad already, but if panny goes (not saying they will) it would really put a knife in the heart of PQ lovers everywhere...

[P@t_Mtl]

I don't know how right I am with this but I also see a problem of too much new things too fast. Within 6 months, new TV with new features that make the one you just got a year before no longer valid. The push for 3D, new formats. It seem every 6 months they just push something new on the market. Change forward is good but I fear we have reach a level where there just too much change. Look how crazy it is for PC and laptop or even tablets and cell. phones. You buy it and 4 months later it's almost like you have a product that was produce in the stone age. There is only so much customers can consume at a given time. After a while you reach a breaking point.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I don't know how right I am with this but I also see a problem of too much new things too fast. Within 6 months, new TV with new features that make the one you just got a year before no longer valid. The push for 3D, new formats. It seem every 6 months they just push something new on the market. Change forward is good but I fear we have reach a level where there just too much change. Look how crazy it is for PC and laptop or even tablets and cell. phones. You buy it and 4 months later it's almost like you have a product that was produce in the stone age. There is only so much customers can consume at a given time. After a while you reach a breaking point.

I agree completely. I see where the manufactures are coming from but they can't think that they can keep up with the great sales of the last several or so years. That was people switching to HDTV/Blu-ray in general. The average TV buyer does not get a new one every year. They do add new features too quickly and that may have hurt them. Any, I hope panny bounces back & keeps making great HDTVs and Blu-ray players.

[Truewitt]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I don't know how right I am with this but I also see a problem of too much new things too fast. Within 6 months, new TV with new features that make the one you just got a year before no longer valid. The push for 3D, new formats. It seem every 6 months they just push something new on the market. Change forward is good but I fear we have reach a level where there just too much change. Look how crazy it is for PC and laptop or even tablets and cell. phones. You buy it and 4 months later it's almost like you have a product that was produce in the stone age. There is only so much customers can consume at a given time. After a while you reach a breaking point.

But this would, in reality, be meaningless except for the tiniest percentage of people. Your average consumer of all the products you describe feel no need to upgrade until they have to and thus are pretty oblivious to these changes in technology. It is generally only savvy, well-informed consumers that would be aware of these changes, and that's a small percentage of sales for any product like this.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I don't know how right I am with this but I also see a problem of too much new things too fast. Within 6 months, new TV with new features that make the one you just got a year before no longer valid. The push for 3D, new formats. It seem every 6 months they just push something new on the market. Change forward is good but I fear we have reach a level where there just too much change. Look how crazy it is for PC and laptop or even tablets and cell. phones. You buy it and 4 months later it's almost like you have a product that was produce in the stone age. There is only so much customers can consume at a given time. After a while you reach a breaking point.

The problem is the consumers, not the manufacturers. Just because someone releases a new model with new features doesn't mean you have to upgrade. But when you do choose to upgrade, the new features will be there.

New car models are released every year (ok, most years it's just cosmetic changes, but there are changes). The car manufacturers are not expecting you to trade in every year. For cars that are owned (as opposed to leased), the average car owner now keeps their car for seven years.

Consumers don't want manufacturers to upgrade their products until they're ready to buy because they don't want to feel like they have an old model. That's ridiculous. Nikon announced the D800 DSLR yesterday. The D700 did not stop working because the D800 was announced.

Having new models every year (aside from the car industry) is a relatively new phenomenon, driven largely by the computer industry. But some products, like major appliances (refrigerators, ovens, etc) have models that are on the market for years without upgrades.

In any case, everyone needs to chill. If you're not ready to upgrade, don't. I'm still using an i-Phone 3G and my Mac is over three years old. (My previous Mac was over seven years old when I retired it.) When I bought my Sony HX929 and new receiver, I finally retired a 25-year-old CRT and a mostly 30+ year-old stereo system (except for the 30-year-old speakers, which I'm still using). Nothing says you have to upgrade.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Truewitt

But this would, in reality, be meaningless except for the tiniest percentage of people. Your average consumer of all the products you describe feel no need to upgrade until they have to and thus are pretty oblivious to these changes in technology. It is generally only savvy, well-informed consumers that would be aware of these changes, and that's a small percentage of sales for any product like this.

I am not sure if people are not as (the word here is not in the meaning I mean it) educated in electronic as they once were? I think in the type of world we now live in, with info being throw at us from left to right, people are more aware of new techs then it might have been 15 or 20 years back.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

The problem is the consumers, not the manufacturers. Just because someone releases a new model with new features doesn't mean you have to upgrade. But when you do choose to upgrade, the new features will be there.

New car models are released every year (ok, most years it's just cosmetic changes, but there are changes). The car manufacturers are not expecting you to trade in every year. For cars that are owned (as opposed to leased), the average car owner now keeps their car for seven years.

Consumers don't want manufacturers to upgrade their products until they're ready to buy because they don't want to feel like they have an old model. That's ridiculous. Nikon announced the D800 DSLR yesterday. The D700 did not stop working because the D800 was announced.

Having new models every year (aside from the car industry) is a relatively new phenomenon, driven largely by the computer industry. But some products, like major appliances (refrigerators, ovens, etc) have models that are on the market for years without upgrades.

In any case, everyone needs to chill. If you're not ready to upgrade, don't. I'm still using an i-Phone 3G and my Mac is over three years old. (My previous Mac was over seven years old when I retired it.) When I bought my Sony HX929 and new receiver, I finally retired a 25-year-old CRT and a mostly 30+ year-old stereo system (except for the 30-year-old speakers, which I'm still using). Nothing says you have to upgrade.

I know some of it fall on us. We are a society of consumers, we in fact consume too much I believe. I do think however that people see electronics and gadget different then they look at cars. I think in electronics there is just too much too fast and we might (I say might cause really no way I or anyone can know) head into a crisis point where we might end up with gadget or tech fatigue.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I would contend that they're not overpriced at all.

I agree 100%. The price of TV's continues to drop precipitously while the technology, quality, and features increase. One of my "rich aunts" bought the first 19" color TV I ever saw in 1960 for $800 (who knows what that translates into today after inflation). My first color TV was a 19" RCA colortrak that I bought in 1980 for $450, my first "big screen" TV was a 40" Mitsubishi that I bought in 1985 for about $3000, my first hi-definition TV was a 65" rear-projection Mitsubishi in 2001 for $5500, and I recently bought a 70" Sharp LED backlit panel for $2400. The trend is obvious. Right now you can get the 80" Sharp panel for $3900, which adjusted for inflation is probably less than my aunt's 19", and yes, Sharp is also losing big bucks. Eight years ago one of the largest flat screens such as a 45" Sharp would have put you back about 7 grand, and only a year ago, the only choice in 70" flat panel TV's was the Sony XBR7 for around $22,000. TV has to be one of the best bargains available to the general public today.

[bobbydrugar]

I think the pace at which these upgrades is happening is too fast. I think consumers are smatter then we give them credit and they keep looking and going hey since i waited last year they added 3d if i wait till next year will they finally release the final tv or should i wait till the year after. If I spend 1500 bucks on something as superfluous as a TV (which was a slow market developement wise for nearly 30 years (we had Black and white/ then color /then what stereo then they got biffer then 20") but we have had moresgnificant upgrades then that in the TV since just last year. 3D / Internet connected Apps/ higher refresh rates 240Hz thinner pannels/ new energy star green tech/ LED vs LCD vs Plasma. Heck if I wasnt a compulsive techie I would paitently wait by the sidelines till the smoke and dust clear from this growing pain to what "SHOULD" Be a "STANDARD"

Thanks,
T

[kris achar]

Originally Posted by Sonny

I just hope panny is not doing the O'l pioneer move... Having number one gone is bad already, but if panny goes (not saying they will) it would really put a knife in the heart of PQ lovers everywhere...

Well Said ! And i personally feel that if plasma giants like panasonic keeps launching new models every year without reducing the price of hi end models,then they are bound to have the same fate of pioneer plasma tv division.
And the R&D department is to be blamed for all the losses these huge companies make.Since money is spent for developing newer products.When their current products did have some minor bugs,like floating blacks,flacuating brightness.
And making the newer products thin & flimsy.And developing 4k & 8k resolution panels.Its funny that even now most of the countries have not switch to 2k Full HD transmission yet and these corporations are talking about higher resolutions !
But the public seems to be more prudent these days...

[Mrbrownst0ne]

Originally Posted by kris achar

Well Said ! And i personally feel that if plasma giants like panasonic keeps launching new models every year without reducing the price of hi end models,then they are bound to have the same fate of pioneer plasma tv division.
And the R&D department is to be blamed for all the losses these huge companies make.Since money is spent for developing newer products.When their current products did have some minor bugs,like floating blacks,flacuating brightness.
And making the newer products thin & flimsy.And developing 4k & 8k resolution panels.Its funny that even now most of the countries have not switch to 2k Full HD transmission yet and these corporations are talking about higher resolutions !
But the public seems to be more prudent these days...

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Interesting indeed. Well i personally was just a bit shocked about panasonic going in loss. I work at future shop here in canada.. When it comes to plasmas, only plasmas that we sell really really well are panasonics...

[lghaze42]

It did'nt help that they bought Sanyo last year.I hate to see them losing that much money, but they are still the largest electronics corp in the world.

[Mrbrownst0ne]

Originally Posted by lghaze42

It did'nt help that they bought Sanyo last year.I hate to see them losing that much money, but they are still the largest electronics corp in the world.

ohhhh so now they own sanyo and pioneer?

[nolfoc]

Originally Posted by p@t_mtl

i don't know how right i am with this but i also see a problem of too much new things too fast. Within 6 months, new tv with new features that make the one you just got a year before no longer valid. The push for 3d, new formats. It seem every 6 months they just push something new on the market. Change forward is good but i fear we have reach a level where there just too much change. Look how crazy it is for pc and laptop or even tablets and cell. Phones. You buy it and 4 months later it's almost like you have a product that was produce in the stone age. There is only so much customers can consume at a given time. After a while you reach a breaking point.

+1

[Aquel]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

I think the pace at which these upgrades is happening is too fast. I think consumers are smatter then we give them credit and they keep looking and going hey since i waited last year they added 3d if i wait till next year will they finally release the final tv or should i wait till the year after. If I spend 1500 bucks on something as superfluous as a TV (which was a slow market developement wise for nearly 30 years (we had Black and white/ then color /then what stereo then they got biffer then 20") but we have had moresgnificant upgrades then that in the TV since just last year. 3D / Internet connected Apps/ higher refresh rates 240Hz thinner pannels/ new energy star green tech/ LED vs LCD vs Plasma. Heck if I wasnt a compulsive techie I would paitently wait by the sidelines till the smoke and dust clear from this growing pain to what "SHOULD" Be a "STANDARD"

Thanks,r.
T

This would mean that no one would buy a product, as there is always a (slightly) improved one next year. The general public probably buys a new tv when they really need a replacement so I can't imagine them waiting for a newer model.