Matching 3 to make proper Timbre

[HAMP]

Well first off sorry to prerich for taking his quote from another thread, I just didn't want to hijack that one. I may have few questions about this subject.

Originally Posted by prerich

The best configuration for the front array of speakers is actually three (3) identical speakers. Many of the audio mags constantly tell of the benifits of identical speakers up front - not just speakers from the same maker. My sides and rears would never match my fronts - they are different in function (they are for ambiant sound). Timbre only really relates to the front speaker array - those should "match" meaning that HT fronts should be sold in threes' not pairs. Home Theater Magazine constanly bashes the horizontally oriented center channel. They applaud any audio maker that makes vertically aligned centers. Oh, and Beta Man knows - yes I only use matched speakers up front - check the signature - three towers or three large bookshelves if my towers ever need repaired. Seemless soundstage and no lobing!

I have kinda read on this before and I have wondered am I missing something?
I wonder if I made a mistake.

I do believe it would be better to have the front 3 identical, but it wouldn't seem right to have a 3rd tower instead of a horizontal speaker and where would 3rd tower be placed?

Using the Center channel speaker from the quintet III between the F2's seem as if they were overpowering it. Also reading how important the center speaker is and the most use from it.

I decided to get something bigger and better. Looking on the Klipsch website they have the C2 as a match for the F2's, but to me it looks like the C3 match with woofer and horn size.

After I ran the Audessay on the Onkyo 805 I noticed that my C3 db is turned way down from the rest of the speakers about 3.5db less. After listening to Transformers I don't think it was the best setting. Voices I would have to concentrate on what was being said, but then when the action started it was wow that sounds fantastic.

What makes the best Timbre? I'm not asking in price, I'm asking what makes it best. i.e. woofer sizes + horn/tweeters sizes, distances and power of the 3 speakers or the center channel being vertical or horizontal.

[prerich]

Here's a quote "To get the most cohesive performance out of perhaps the most important channel in your home theater, strive for getting a center channel that is identical to your mains. If you can’t accommodate that goal, then do your best to avoid or minimize wave interference across your room by being wary of horizontal redundancy. Look for designs that have a vertical arrangement of their tweeters and midrange drivers. Look for planar, coaxial, lower tweeter crossover points, higher order crossovers, or other designs that avoid or minimize the “double slit” effect and incoherency that can result. Perhaps you’ll find yourself buying a speaker with fewer, higher quality drivers. Perhaps you’ll save yourself some money. Perhaps you’ll find your guests enjoying what you’ve put together and happily encouraging you to spend more money on this family fun. That’s what we’re all really after, right?

by Chris Seymour" You can read the whole article at audioholics, here's the link http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs Using an identical speaker to you mains as the center is the best option. Pans should be smooth, they shouldn't sound like the came from the left speaker then the center then the right speaker, they should sound like a complete soundfield. I discovered this listening to the Fosgate Model 3a System that had Identical floorstanding speakers (vertically oriented). Even music in the freaky surround modes were convincingly live and realistic (the processor was no slouch either). I heard this again when I decided to get a third Snell E-II. I haven't looked back since - even when my tweeters went out on my Snells - I had three Infinity RS6b's for back up duty - I must have three identical up front - it's just very....______________real.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Well first off sorry to prerich for taking his quote from another thread, I just didn't want to hijack that one. I may have few questions about this subject.

After I ran the Audessay on the Onkyo 805 I noticed that my C3 db is turned way down from the rest of the speakers about 3.5db less. After listening to Transformers I don't think it was the best setting. Voices I would have to concentrate on what was being said, but then when the action started it was wow that sounds fantastic.

.

You felt that the dialouge was too low huh ....That's covered in the article - that's what happens with a horizontal oriented center channel. You are compelled to turn it up to hear the voices (lobing). Oh and as far as timbre matching - the best match is an identical one, it doesn't get any better than that

[mdabb]

One of the common problems of some center channel speakers is lobing produced by drivers being too close to each other. Most applications will not allow for a tower so a horizontal speaker is born out of convenience.

I was shocked at how big my center channel speaker is when it came. I knew it was big but...........basically it is a Dali Helicon 400 speaker turned on its side. Measurements are roughly 25.5 inches wide X 8.5 inches tall X 17.5 inches deep. It sounds great though and there are larger ones out there.

[HAMP]

I had to go find what "lobing" is....
Humm, from reading about it, it sounds like more of a Manufacture defect.


"When you have a center speaker with two midrange units side by side, the cancellations occurs when you are to the left or right of the dead center, on-axis location. The cancellation is call "lobing". "

[cravnsn]

Having both the regular DVD & BD version of Transformers, and using only my two front speakers in a “phantom center” mode, I can say unequivocally that the human dialog in that movie is far quieter than the “robot” dialog and sound effects.

Two speakers, no center = no lobbing, a seamless panning soundstage, no concern about timbre matching and a less expensive speaker system.

[Clark Kent]

I have three identical speakers across the front of my soundstage (actually I have five identical speakers in my setup) and it is a step up in sound quality from the typical two front speakers and a center setup.

Center speakers are a compromise that manufacturers make because many people can't fit a tall third speaker in the middle of their display unless they have a front projection theater or a dedicated music room. It sounds great, especially for the many classical recordings I own that are strictly in 3.0 channels.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I had to go find what "lobing" is....
Humm, from reading about it, it sounds like more of a Manufacture defect.


"When you have a center speaker with two midrange units side by side, the cancellations occurs when you are to the left or right of the dead center, on-axis location. The cancellation is call "lobing". "

Yes, and that's the way most center channels are made - 2 midrange drivers to the side and a tweeter in the middle better known as MTM.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I have three identical speakers across the front of my soundstage (actually I have five identical speakers in my setup) and it is a step up in sound quality from the typical two front speakers and a center setup.

Center speakers are a compromise that manufacturers make because many people can't fit a tall third speaker in the middle of their display unless they have a front projection theater or a dedicated music room. It sounds great, especially for the many classical recordings I own that are strictly in 3.0 channels.

+1 and your set-up is the recommended set-up by ITU (5 identical speakers). You are correct - the horizontal oriented center channel was born out of convienence - having to be placed above or under a large tv.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Having both the regular DVD & BD version of Transformers, and using only my two front speakers in a “phantom center” mode, I can say unequivocally that the human dialog in that movie is far quieter than the “robot” dialog and sound effects.

Ok! soooo, it's not just me!! I was thinking I had it bad ... THE LOBING ...!

Reading the link prerich provided, I noticed they used the C2 as part of the test. I think I will try and turn mine on it's side and see if it makes a difference. I almost don't want to do it, because if I like it then I will have something for people to laugh at when they come over.

I have been second guessing myself and thinking I made a mistake with the C3, but from this thread I'm glad I bought it.

Also when I ran the Audyssey it left some strange settings to me.

Left -9.0
Center -10.5
Right -8.0
Surr Right -6.5
Surr Back R -7.0
Surr Back L -8.0
Surr Left -6.5
Subwoofer -10.0

All in the negative.
The only thing this will do is make a person turn the volume up a little higher. It would seem the lowest number on the list should stay @ 0 and the rest negative from there instead of being so much in the hole.

For Example:
Left -2.5
Center -4.0
Right -1.5
Surr Right -0.0 <---- should be the one @ 0
Surr Back R -0.5
Surr Back L -1.5
Surr Left -0.0 <---- should be the one @ 0
Subwoofer -3.5

This would be the same setting, just keeping the volume lower on the receiver.

BTW...
in my sig. I have 2 subs, but I only have one connected.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by prerich

Yes, and that's the way most center channels are made - 2 midrange drivers to the side and a tweeter in the middle better known as MTM.

Exactly, the center "should" have vertically oriented tweeter/mid with midbass drivers on each side.

But in a perfect world, identical speakers are best.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Ok! soooo, it's not just me!! I was thinking I had it bad ... THE LOBING ...!

Reading the link prerich provided, I noticed they used the C2 as part of the test. I think I will try and turn mine on it's side and see if it makes a difference. I almost don't want to do it, because if I like it then I will have something for people to laugh at when they come over.

I have been second guessing myself and thinking I made a mistake with the C3, but from this thread I'm glad I bought it.

Also when I ran the Audyssey it left some strange settings to me.

Left -9.0
Center -10.5
Right -8.0
Surr Right -6.5
Surr Back R -7.0
Surr Back L -8.0
Surr Left -6.5
Subwoofer -10.0

All in the negative.
The only thing this will do is make a person turn the volume up a little higher. It would seem the lowest number on the list should stay @ 0 and the rest negative from there instead of being so much in the hole.

For Example:
Left -2.5
Center -4.0
Right -1.5
Surr Right -0.0 <---- should be the one @ 0
Surr Back R -0.5
Surr Back L -1.5
Surr Left -0.0 <---- should be the one @ 0
Subwoofer -3.5

This would be the same setting, just keeping the volume lower on the receiver.

BTW...
in my sig. I have 2 subs, but I only have one connected.

It is honestly 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.

It has to do with the volume (spl) received at the mic location that is generated by the Audyssey test tones. It would just add another layer if the program had to figure which was the closest, and change all of the settings based on that.

The way they have it set is so that it performs the exact same way in every room. ie: in a bigger room than yours it may 0 out the side surrounds (or even turn them up). It is simpler for programming to make the program do the same thing every time.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Having both the regular DVD & BD version of Transformers, and using only my two front speakers in a “phantom center” mode, I can say unequivocally that the human dialog in that movie is far quieter than the “robot” dialog and sound effects.

Two speakers, no center = no lobbing, a seamless panning soundstage, no concern about timbre matching and a less expensive speaker system.

But in that scenario no other seating position will hear what the "sweet spot" hears.

Perhaps that doesnt matter to you, but to most it does. *shrug*

[Woody]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I had to go find what "lobing" is....
Humm, from reading about it, it sounds like more of a Manufacture defect.


"When you have a center speaker with two midrange units side by side, the cancellations occurs when you are to the left or right of the dead center, on-axis location. The cancellation is call "lobing". "

It is not a manufacturer defect it is simply the physics of audio and human hearing. Combine that with your typical MTM layout (cheaper and smaller) and you have lobing.

That is why better center speakers have a driver array like I listed above.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Woody

It is not a manufacturer defect it is simply the physics of audio and human hearing. Combine that with your typical MTM layout (cheaper and smaller) and you have lobing.

That is why better center speakers have a driver array like I listed above.

+1 Correct! Vertically aligned not horizontally !

[Riff Magnum]

Are there any horizontally mounted center channels available out there that are better at reducing lobing? I just don't see how anyone without a projector could have a third floorstanding speaker right in the middle of their setup.

[Big Daddy]

Some useful web sites on the topic of Horizontal versus Vertical center speakers.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html
http://www.homeacoustics.net/Pearls/0206Pearls.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded...nded200307.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=33771
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...hp/t-4958.html
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9821918-47.html
http://www.nousaine.com/cen%20chan%201.htm
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_truth...aker_arrays_2/
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/dec0...sign_part3.htm
http://seymourav.com/screens.asp
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6035_102...hreadID=294936
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm
http://www.atlantictechnology.com/?NodeId=36
http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en...-lcr-overview/
http://www.gizmag.com/outlaw-lcr-loudspeaker/8748/
http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/xlc/xlc.htm

[Riff Magnum]

muchas gracias

[cravnsn]

Originally Posted by Woody

But in that scenario no other seating position will hear what the "sweet spot" hears.

Perhaps that doesnt matter to you, but to most it does. *shrug*

TBH - I don't think the others in my house notice nor care.

[SRTCraig]

I think the most important thing with the center channel is to at least have the same tweeter as the fr l/r speakers.

Having said that, i have polk audio speakers and until about 3 months ago had a single, dedicated, center speaker. It had matching drivers and tweeter to my mains. A friend suggested using a pair of polk bookshelves as a center and i have never looked back....... Its way more natural and just has so much more presence.

Looks cool too....