The Biggest Flip Floppers on Earth? (RAGE)

[Elandyll]

No, not Democrats or Republicains. I'm talking Videogames here

And about ID Software in particular, and Tim Willits more specifically.

Let us remember the "Rage" affair, that started back in August at the Quakecon.

First, a bomb is dropped by Carmack himself: The 360 version of Rage will look worse on 360, due to compression, as they need to stuff the game on 2 DVDs instead of 3, while they have all the space in the world on Blu Ray.

Next, later this summer around the Leipzig GC, Willits drop another bomb:
Not only will the game look worse, they had to alter the content of the game as there was not enough space to follow the original concept.

A day or two later, big backpedalling from Willits: He didn't mean it like that, the 6 chapters were always meant to be in 2 chapters, etc.
Big silence on the "The game experience was definitely changed to adapt to the DVD format" though.

And now, the big one.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news...eing-********s

Rage Dev: Microsoft Isn't Being '********s'
Andy Chalk posted on 29 Sep 2008 9:51 am

Tim Willits says the controversy surrounding the Xbox 360 version of id's upcoming Rage is the result of a misunderstanding, and that Microsoft isn't being "********s" about it.

Comments made by id genius John Carmack at the QuakeCon in August implied that Rage for the Xbox 360 would look worse than the PC or PlayStation 3 releases because there's simply too much uncompressed data to fit on two dual-layer DVDs. He claimed Microsoft's royalty fee structure means a three-disc version of the game isn't feasible, necessitating a form of compression that will result in lower-quality visuals than those found in other versions of the game.

But Rage lead designer Willits now says the whole thing was a mix-up, and that the decision to use two DVDs instead of three was the result of the game's story, which fits well into two acts but not three. "Microsoft is not being ********s. It was a simple kind of miscommunication. Microsoft does not charge a royalty per disc, but there is a cost of goods that goes along with manufacturing," Willits told Shacknews.

"I had the story all written out, and we decided to make it into two acts, with a logical place in the middle where players will remove one disc and stick the other disc in, and the never have to load that other disc up," he said. "The story is constructed in such a way that I would be very sad if we had to make it fit into three discs, because where would you switch the disc if it's three and you had a two-act story?"

Willits admitted that Carmack was correct about the reduced visuals on the Xbox 360, but claimed it would make no real difference in the final product. "Yes, I mean, technically that is correct, but realistically and practically they look the same," he said. "The confusion over three discs was just a simple mixup here at id, not a disagreement. John is so black and white. John is so technically correct. You know how John is."

"We haven't solved all the compression issues yet. We're close to it," he continued. "The PS3 streams things slower than the 360, so by the time we ship, there may be the case where getting things off the disc faster may ultimately look better. Until we are really done, and until we can get a reporter to come to id for a 'first look,' it's really difficult to predict, because DVD streaming may play a factor."

Well there you have it people, a full 180

Not only the game is -exactly- the way it was supposed to be with 2 discs (3 discs = bad), BUT the faster streaming of the DVD will make it look BETTER on 360 rather than having uncompressd textures on PS3.

Don't we all feel much better now ?

Wonder if a threat from a MS lawyer was enough, or if they had to provide incentives for that kind of flipped-flopped BS ?

[mikejet]

That's why HD's should be MANDATORY.

[camper]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Wonder if a threat from a MS lawyer was enough, or if they had to provide incentives for that kind of flipped-flopped BS ?

Personally, I smelled BS when I read the line about 'royalties per disk to microsoft'. The royalties come from the licensing of the game on the system, not the amount of discs. Otherwise they would be paying those same royalties on the PC version since the PC version STILL is running a microsoft OS and they're still paying royalties to MS.

More than likely, the guy was talking out his a-double-dollar-sign because, if you hadn't noticed, bashing Microsoft is definitely en-vogue these days.

Also, I wonder how much of an issue the 2/3 disc thing is considering OTHER games are multi-disc and with the new "Xbox Experience" users can do HDD installs.

The video quality issue certainly is a concern. Then we get into the whole 'naked eye' thing, where I have a picture that is of a much lower resolution and higher compression that loads fast but is technically worse than a higher res image; but telling the difference is impossible at the level most people will view it.

And, I've noticed the PS3 taking a while to load when it seems (to me) that it should be MUCH faster.

Still, I always take software developers with a grain of salt. I've known too many of them, and they always jump at the chance to criticise the OS or hardware manufacturers for theirr product not working as it should when the real problem is their own sloppy code.

camper

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by camper

Personally, I smelled BS when I read the line about 'royalties per disk to microsoft'. The royalties come from the licensing of the game on the system, not the amount of discs. Otherwise they would be paying those same royalties on the PC version since the PC version STILL is running a microsoft OS and they're still paying royalties to MS.

More than likely, the guy was talking out his a-double-dollar-sign because, if you hadn't noticed, bashing Microsoft is definitely en-vogue these days.

Also, I wonder how much of an issue the 2/3 disc thing is considering OTHER games are multi-disc and with the new "Xbox Experience" users can do HDD installs.

The video quality issue certainly is a concern. Then we get into the whole 'naked eye' thing, where I have a picture that is of a much lower resolution and higher compression that loads fast but is technically worse than a higher res image; but telling the difference is impossible at the level most people will view it.

And, I've noticed the PS3 taking a while to load when it seems (to me) that it should be MUCH faster.

Still, I always take software developers with a grain of salt. I've known too many of them, and they always jump at the chance to criticise the OS or hardware manufacturers for theirr product not working as it should when the real problem is their own sloppy code.

camper

So wait .. John Carmack himself was just "getting on the bandwagon" of MS haters?
Same for Willits, who retracted (partially) his very own words a mere day later, and who now says the very opposite of what was initially said ?

[dpomp]

these guys are seriously a bunch of jokes! i personally won't be buying this game just because all this crap! face it people the XBOX SUCKS!!! people only defend it bacause it came out first and they "couldn't wait for next generation" so they bought it and now that they see how much better the PS3 is they start defending it cause that's what they "chose" the same thing w/ HD DUD. there is NOTHING better on the 360 than the PS3. argue more games all you want but they're all the same games w/ different guns.

that's all the 360 has to offer is FPS. the XBLA sucks. i have to pay so i can have the chance to "buy" games?? give me a break micro$oft.

stop ruining games and then paying people to cover up for you!

[Crim122]

My friend still tries to tell me I shoulda got the 360 because of Gears...OK!

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by Crim122

My friend still tries to tell me I shoulda got the 360 because of Gears...OK!

[camper]

Then he's either a fool or a hypocrite. Either way, you believed him because he bashed microsoft and now you think he 'drank some kool-aid' because he took it back?

Even if there was damage control on his part, what I was saying is that a LOT of software developers bash the OS they're developing for because it couldn't possibly be their code that's flawed. Most programmer I know (the good ones) have a bit of a god-complex and think that it's nigh impossible for them to make a mistake in the massive lines of code they write. How many people say that the game their playing at the time 'cheats' because they happen to suck at it and can't get past a certain part? Same basic principle.

Originally Posted by dpompeo

these guys are seriously a bunch of jokes! i personally won't be buying this game just because all this crap! face it people the XBOX SUCKS!!! people only defend it bacause it came out first and they "couldn't wait for next generation" so they bought it and now that they see how much better the PS3 is they start defending it cause that's what they "chose" the same thing w/ HD DUD. there is NOTHING better on the 360 than the PS3. argue more games all you want but they're all the same games w/ different guns.

that's all the 360 has to offer is FPS. the XBLA sucks. i have to pay so i can have the chance to "buy" games?? give me a break micro$oft.

stop ruining games and then paying people to cover up for you!

Did you even read the article before you posted your reply, or do you look for key words and copy/paste the same standard rant? And do you have both systems to compare both games side by side? Because when people with both DO have both systems, the consensus generally boils down to whatever system of choice is thier personal preference.

And how do you feel about the PS store giving you the chance to 'buy' games too? Oh wait, Sony is a non-profit for the PS3 fanbois. I forgot microsoft is the only company that cares about making money.

camper

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by camper

Did you even read the article before you posted your reply, or do you look for key words and copy/paste the same standard rant? And do you have both systems to compare both games side by side? Because when people with both DO have both systems, the consensus generally boils down to whatever system of choice is thier personal preference.

And how do you feel about the PS store giving you the chance to 'buy' games too? Oh wait, Sony is a non-profit for the PS3 fanbois. I forgot microsoft is the only company that cares about making money.

camper

Whats wrong with being a fanboy?

[dpomp]

Originally Posted by camper

Then he's either a fool or a hypocrite. Either way, you believed him because he bashed microsoft and now you think he 'drank some kool-aid' because he took it back?

Even if there was damage control on his part, what I was saying is that a LOT of software developers bash the OS they're developing for because it couldn't possibly be their code that's flawed. Most programmer I know (the good ones) have a bit of a god-complex and think that it's nigh impossible for them to make a mistake in the massive lines of code they write. How many people say that the game their playing at the time 'cheats' because they happen to suck at it and can't get past a certain part? Same basic principle.



Did you even read the article before you posted your reply, or do you look for key words and copy/paste the same standard rant? And do you have both systems to compare both games side by side? Because when people with both DO have both systems, the consensus generally boils down to whatever system of choice is thier personal preference.

And how do you feel about the PS store giving you the chance to 'buy' games too? Oh wait, Sony is a non-profit for the PS3 fanbois. I forgot microsoft is the only company that cares about making money.

camper

yes i read the article. did you?? i don't own the crap box because i don't want anything so cheap and poorly made in my house. i have played it before and that's the reason i didn't buy it. cause it sucks! you're the same as all the xbox fan boys "oh it's the same thing side by side" games systems anymore are about quality. not graphics and an over compressed piece of crap shooter called "halo"

i didn't say anything about sony making money. microsoft charges for xbox live sony charges nothing for psn. sure you buy games but why pay just for the chance to buy games?? did you even read my post or did you just skim through it looking for key words. have fun with your HD DUD add-on.

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

have fun with your HD DUD add-on.

.............

[Monkey]

It will probably be underwhelming like Doom III.

Still, it smells as if some money exchanged hands to correct some bad publicity. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by camper

Then he's either a fool or a hypocrite. Either way, you believed him because he bashed microsoft and now you think he 'drank some kool-aid' because he took it back?

Well, you tell me. Apparently the original story layout was made for 6 chapters (it had been discussed before Quakecon), and he tells us -specifically- that the way players will experience the game will change due to the DVD useage ... but he is not flip flopping? Doesn't it literally -reeks- of damage control?

Even if there was damage control on his part, what I was saying is that a LOT of software developers bash the OS they're developing for because it couldn't possibly be their code that's flawed. Most programmer I know (the good ones) have a bit of a god-complex and think that it's nigh impossible for them to make a mistake in the massive lines of code they write. How many people say that the game their playing at the time 'cheats' because they happen to suck at it and can't get past a certain part? Same basic principle.

How is it a code problem when they do not have enough space for all the textures (or need to compress them and thus affecting quality)?
How is it their code when Willits says the "way the story will be experienced" has changed due to 2 DVD space, and then flips the story on its head saying it was supposed to be that way all along?
And now, he flip flops the texture compression thing (supposedly making the PS3 version look better) by saying "well, the faster loading from DVD might make the Xbox version look better"?
And justifying this difference by "Oh well, you know how John is, technically right, but .. well..."?
This can only be explained by "Oh sh..., we are pissing MS off!"

You are visibly trying to make excuses for the bobox here man
Note that I am not trashing the Xbox, I couldn't care less about that console, I am merely pointing out that Willits is a Shill for so blatantly reversing his story.

[camper]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

i don't own the crap box because i don't want anything so cheap and poorly made in my house. i have played it before and that's the reason i didn't buy it. cause it sucks! you're the same as all the xbox fan boys "oh it's the same thing side by side" games systems anymore are about quality. not graphics and an over compressed piece of crap shooter called "halo"

Ohh...so you played it once and know all about it. Gotcha. The interweb told you the rest, right?

And for the record, I've played a bunch of games on the PS3 & the 360 (Since I have both systems) and the difference really isn't that much.

i didn't say anything about sony making money. microsoft charges for xbox live sony charges nothing for psn. sure you buy games but why pay just for the chance to buy games?? did you even read my post or did you just skim through it looking for key words. have fun with your HD DUD add-on.

You only need the gold membership if you want to play games online. Silver membership lets you do everything else except video chate. If you want to download a demo, you don't have to pay a dime--you just have to have a live account just like you need a PSN account. If you want to buy a game, you have to pay for it just like PSN. But you know ALL about the Xbox so I feel kind of silly telling one as informed as yourself. But I do agree that it sucks to pay for membership to play online, but honestly PSN needs to fix their online gaming setup because comparing it side by side...it sucks.

Cute jab with the HD-DVD. Don't own one, never did...but cute jab none the less

camper

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by camper

but honestly PSN needs to fix their online gaming setup because comparing it side by side...it sucks.

How does it suck exactly?

[dpomp]

Originally Posted by camper

Ohh...so you played it once and know all about it.

yeah i said that right?? i know plenty of people who own this piece of crap. why waste money on it?

And for the record, I've played a bunch of games on the PS3 & the 360 (Since I have both systems) and the difference really isn't that much.

really?? it looks to me like you prefer it on your 360...... run along little microsoft soldier. have fun shooting people. that's the only thing your machine is releasing.

You only need the gold membership if you want to play games online. Silver membership lets you do everything else except video chate. If you want to download a demo, you don't have to pay a dime--you just have to have a live account just like you need a PSN account. If you want to buy a game, you have to pay for it just like PSN. But you know ALL about the Xbox so I feel kind of silly telling one as informed as yourself. But I do agree that it sucks to pay for membership to play online, but honestly PSN needs to fix their online gaming setup because comparing it side by side...it sucks.

i don't need to respond to this. cause YOU know so much about the PSN right?? what's better about the 360??? oh i can in game chat!! that way all these people can here me blasting my music and chewing my gum or breathing heavily cause i'm overweight. i don't care about the chat crap. it's annoying and i mute it on the ps3 anyway.

Cute jab with the HD-DVD. Don't own one, never did...but cute jab none the less

camper

oh sorry. you're right. i should have taken a jab at the fact that you can't play for months at a time with your red ring of death. what are you on you're 4th 360?? don't lie.. or that you have to pay extra to get a hard drive on your machine. and if you want a bigger hard drive you have to get one made by microsoft....... yeah i bet your 360's better. but seriously i don't care think what you want. cause i've already found out that 360 fanboys are blinded by their "halo"

[dpomp]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

How does it suck exactly?

don't worry dude. it's what xbots are programmed to say.

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

don't worry dude. it's what xbots are programmed to say.

LMAO!.. classic!

[dpomp]

i know you're already replying camper. and i told you i'm finished. i'm not going to reply back to you. so have fun.

don't take it as a sign of weakness.

[camper]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

really?? it looks to me like you prefer it on your 360...... run along little microsoft soldier. have fun shooting people. that's the only thing your machine is releasing.

I like the controller better, and I like the gamerscore/achievements setup more too. And I like the Live marketplace layout much better than the PS store. And I LOVE being able to have my 360 turn off after it's finished downloading.

i don't need to respond to this. cause YOU know so much about the PSN right?? what's better about the 360??? oh i can in game chat!! that way all these people can here me blasting my music and chewing my gum or breathing heavily cause i'm overweight. i don't care about the chat crap. it's annoying and i mute it on the ps3 anyway.

Honetsly, I don't care about online gaming much and when I did play on it with COD4 I never turned on the mic. (although listening to other people talk like fools is entertaining)

oh sorry. you're right. i should have taken a jab at the fact that you can't play for months at a time with your red ring of death. what are you on you're 4th 360?? don't lie.. or that you have to pay extra to get a hard drive on your machine. and if you want a bigger hard drive you have to get one made by microsoft....... yeah i bet your 360's better. but seriously i don't care think what you want. cause i've already found out that 360 fanboys are blinded by their "halo"

Only ever had one system, and it never had RROD. I have the new chipset with HDMI output and has never succomb to RROD. I know about 6 other people with older systems and they didn't RROD either. Will they? Time will tell I suppose. Agree on the HDD, that annoys the crap out of me. I do want a larger HDD but although I can afford the ~$139 to get one I don't *want* to pay that much for 120 gigs, but I'll wait until the Netflix partnership with MS goes through to see if using my NF membership to get movies via my 360 (without paying extra) is worthwhile and if installing a game onto my HDD (full, not partially) is something that I like.

But don't call me a fanboy, because I could care less if MS or Apple or anyone else produces the 360 or the PS or anything else. I don't have an agenda against a corporation because I'm not a petty little man. I just love the products for what they are, and enjoy them because they do what I (for the most part) want.

The 360 didn't meet all my needs/wants, so I bought a PS3. The PS3 doesn't meet all my needs/wants, so I would have gotten a 360 too. That's the advantage of being a grownup and having a real job and not depending on Christmas or birthdays to get the things I want

camper