Is this noise (?) normal in dark blu-ray scenes - Blu-ray Forum

canerzi · 09-13-2008, 03:50 PM

Ok so this is something I've been meaning to ask guys over here for a long time but I wasn't sure if I would be able to explain the issue. So I've tried to take some photos of the scenes I experienced the problem, and I hope they help.

Everybody talks about grain and bad picture quality (due to bad transfers and stuff) but I don't think this can be categorized as "poor transfer" or "intentional noise", even as "unintentional noise". The screens are from the "Miami Vice" blu-ray, which had this almost all over the movie. It is mostly recognizable in dark scenes, especially in dark scenes, and I do not this is due to my equipment since it does not happen in all movies. In addition, Miami Vice has some great sections where the picture is pristine and clear.

This problem is also present in Ocean 11-12-13 series mostly and on some other movies like Pirates of Carribean, Payback etc. although to a lower extent. Many other movies have this in dark scenes, but not so much that it bothers me.

I've just finished watching and this thing bothered me so much that I realized, I would have got a better picture if I were to but the standard DVD and upscaled it. To me, this movie is unwatchable on blu-ray. Mark my words, I'm not saying it's poor quality or bothersome, I'm saying it is "worse" than it's upscaled standard DVD counterpart.

So what I'm wondering is, are you all having this kind of issue, or am I the only one? I guess you must not, otherwise blu-ray movies would not be very popular. I'm also curious whether is this related to my equipment, some kind of interference from the cable tv or any other electronic device near the tv, or some setting that I should change on my PS3.

So take a look. My player is a PAL PS3 and my tv is a 40 inch full HD Philips.

jlee24219 · 09-13-2008, 03:54 PM

hmm well I haven't watched that on blu-ray yet, but in general dark scenes to exhibit more grain. You can look at the review here http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...ce_blu-ray.htm for his screen captures and compare them with yours, maybe that'll give you an idea

JasonR · 09-13-2008, 04:01 PM

Have you calibrated your television? I would guess not....

Edit: Having looked at those pictures, that looks horrible. Something is definitely wrong with either your camera or your TV. Is that how it actually looks on screen?

alexakajeff · 09-13-2008, 04:02 PM

No, that is not normal at all.

canerzi · 09-13-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonR

Have you calibrated your television? I would guess not....

Edit: Having looked at those pictures, that looks horrible. Something is definitely wrong with either your camera or your TV. Is that how it actually looks on screen?

It actually looks worse on screen than those images. I thought I have calibrated it, but seeing this, I'm not sure. Any suggestions on what to calibrate? Can this be some sort of interference from some other electronic signal?

JasonR · 09-13-2008, 04:14 PM

That doesn't look like a calibration issue, or grain for that matter. Turning your sharpness down on your set would clear up most of that. Does it only do that when playing Blu-Rays?

bdLuvr · 09-13-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canerzi

It actually looks worse on screen than those images. I thought I have calibrated it, but seeing this, I'm not sure. Any suggestions on what to calibrate? Can this be some sort of interference from some other electronic signal?

there is some kinda of pattern interherint to interference. Ive never seen anything like this. It would drive me nuts :P

canerzi · 09-13-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonR

That doesn't look like a calibration issue, or grain for that matter. Turning your sharpness down on your set would clear up most of that. Does it only do that when playing Blu-Rays?

I've never seen it during the games. It does not do that on many other blu-rays either. And on some movies, only for a couple of seconfs.I can only see this during the dark scenes.

I can not imagine a "noise" so significant can be eliminated by calibration but I'll give it a try.

Russell_L · 09-13-2008, 06:09 PM

That noise looks pretty awful on your screen captures. It certainly can't be normal! FWIW, the HDD review noted some noise as well:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1448/miamivice2006.html

Quote: "The problem is video noise -- it's rampant throughout, especially in any remotely dark scene with subdued lighting."

GGX · 09-13-2008, 06:14 PM

Keep in mind that Miami Vice was intentionally filmed in a very gritty, noisy style. Michael Mann deliberatly shot Miami Vice using Thomson VIPER high-def cams with a low iso setting. This creates video noise especially in darker scenes.

Miami Vice is not meant to look absolutely pristine and crystal clear.

JasonR · 09-13-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canerzi

I've never seen it during the games. It does not do that on many other blu-rays either. And on some movies, only for a couple of seconfs.I can only see this during the dark scenes.

I can not imagine a "noise" so significant can be eliminated by calibration but I'll give it a try.

No, I was saying a calibration would tone down the grain if that is what it was. But from the looks of it, you have other issues...

Riff Magnum · 09-13-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGX

Keep in mind that Miami Vice was intentionally filmed in a very gritty, noisy style. Michael Mann deliberatly shot Miami Vice using Thomson VIPER high-def cams with a low iso setting. This creates video noise especially in darker scenes.

Miami Vice is not meant to look absolutely pristine and crystal clear.

those screenshots are more serious than just a little intentional grain.

SoCalTiger · 09-13-2008, 06:50 PM

Yeah that is completely not normal and not calibration either. No idea what would cause that. I suppose you could start by figuring out if there is a problem with your cables or player.

Tony Stark · 09-14-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canerzi

Ok so this is something I've been meaning to ask guys over here for a long time but I wasn't sure if I would be able to explain the issue. So I've tried to take some photos of the scenes I experienced the problem, and I hope they help.

Everybody talks about grain and bad picture quality (due to bad transfers and stuff) but I don't think this can be categorized as "poor transfer" or "intentional noise", even as "unintentional noise". The screens are from the "Miami Vice" blu-ray, which had this almost all over the movie. It is mostly recognizable in dark scenes, especially in dark scenes, and I do not this is due to my equipment since it does not happen in all movies. In addition, Miami Vice has some great sections where the picture is pristine and clear.

This problem is also present in Ocean 11-12-13 series mostly and on some other movies like Pirates of Carribean, Payback etc. although to a lower extent. Many other movies have this in dark scenes, but not so much that it bothers me.

I've just finished watching and this thing bothered me so much that I realized, I would have got a better picture if I were to but the standard DVD and upscaled it. To me, this movie is unwatchable on blu-ray. Mark my words, I'm not saying it's poor quality or bothersome, I'm saying it is "worse" than it's upscaled standard DVD counterpart.

So what I'm wondering is, are you all having this kind of issue, or am I the only one? I guess you must not, otherwise blu-ray movies would not be very popular. I'm also curious whether is this related to my equipment, some kind of interference from the cable tv or any other electronic device near the tv, or some setting that I should change on my PS3.

So take a look. My player is a PAL PS3 and my tv is a 40 inch full HD Philips.

I noticed that with Miami Vice last night, some scene was wow'd and grainy. IT looked like it was shot with home video camcorder. However, I still love the movie and will watch it a lot.

kiskiboy97 · 09-14-2008, 05:13 PM

Ben Williams wrote a great review of this movie a while back. Here is what he had to say about the video transfer.

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...32&show=review

Miami Vice is presented on Blu-ray in its original theatrical aspect ratio of 2.35:1 using the VC-1 compression codec. Much has been made of the visual look at this movie and complaints have echoed across just about every internet forum where Miami Vice has been mentioned. Michael Mann and cinematographer Dion Bebee shot the movie entirely on HD video, much like Mann's prior film Collateral. The outrage that has erupted over Miami Vice seems to stem from its noisy and gritty look. Indeed, it is a messy looking movie. Noise is extremely prevalent throughout the image, especially scenes that take place in darkened rooms and at night. Those types of scenes make up about 90 percent of the movie. Colors are also desaturated and the entire film has an almost monochromatic feel to it. Yes, Miami Vice looks terrible, but it's supposed to. Anyone who saw the feature theatrically probably noticed the visual look of the film. This is not an instance where a bad encode has been thrust upon the public. In fact, I'm of the opinion that this Blu-ray release of Miami Vice is extremely accurate to the theatrical presentation.

There is an almost endless list of digital artifacts present in Miami Vice. Obviously, noise is the primary cause of all the complaints while jaggies and strange color timing also add fuel to the fire. Of course, this is all intentional in Miami Vice so this is somewhat of a critic-proof transfer. Any critique of the look of the movie would have to be aimed at Mann and Bebee and that's something I'm not willing to do since I actually enjoy the unique look of this picture. One can certainly say that there aren't any other films in recent memory that share Miami Vice's distinctive look.

canerzi · 09-14-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiskiboy97

Ben Williams wrote a great review of this movie a while back. Here is what he had to say about the video transfer.

Yes,well I do not think the image I'm getting is how the movie is supposed to look, as evidenced by the screenshots.

I intend to try another HDMI cable and see if it makes any difference. The PS3 and the tv are very close to my wireless modem and maybe that is another reason (Altough I doubt it, since the image is the same even if I turn off the modem). I'll experiment a bit. I do not think there is something wrong with my TV yet, but maybe that is it.

Riff Magnum · 09-14-2008, 07:00 PM

So is the grain in this movie at the level of something like "Inland Empire?"
I don't think i could actually watch Colin Farrell long enough to give it a critique.

obiwopkenobi62 · 09-14-2008, 07:04 PM

After looking at the pics you posted I don't think it's the movies. You also mentioned seeing it in Oceans 11-12-13,other movies like Pirates of Carribean, Payback etc. although to a lower extent. I have not seen what you're describing in the Oceans Movies or Pirates movies. I also watched Miami Vice and din't see what was in your posted pics. I think your TV needs to be calibrated or there is something wrong with it. HDMI cables either work or they don't so I don't think it's your cables.

aramis109 · 09-14-2008, 07:47 PM

Payback and Miami Vice are both grain-heavy movies. You've picked two of the grainiest shots in that movie. What your screenshots show is the moire effect from your camera on TOP of that. As such, it honestly looks like crap. If your tv actually looks like those pics, look at swapping out the HDMI cable, checking your connections, calibrating your tv, or calling for service, because something is not right.

That "screen door" effect (moire) is from the camera. The grain in the movies is intention. However, if it looks THAT bad, something is messed up.

Papi4baby · 09-14-2008, 08:26 PM

are the lines the refresh rate??? banding??? or the TV is messup,am i the only one that see's them?

09-13-2008, 04:01 PM	#3
JasonR Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Trading Score:12	Have you calibrated your television? I would guess not.... Edit: Having looked at those pictures, that looks horrible. Something is definitely wrong with either your camera or your TV. Is that how it actually looks on screen? Last edited by JasonR; 09-13-2008 at 04:05 PM.

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09-13-2008, 03:54 PM	#2
jlee24219 Active Member Member since:May 2008 Location:VA/KY 4K collection:19 Blu-ray collection:130 Trading Score:83	hmm well I haven't watched that on blu-ray yet, but in general dark scenes to exhibit more grain. You can look at the review here http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...ce_blu-ray.htm for his screen captures and compare them with yours, maybe that'll give you an idea

09-13-2008, 04:02 PM	#4
alexakajeff Banned Member since:Apr 2008 Blu-ray reviews:2	No, that is not normal at all.

09-13-2008, 04:14 PM	#6
JasonR Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Trading Score:12	That doesn't look like a calibration issue, or grain for that matter. Turning your sharpness down on your set would clear up most of that. Does it only do that when playing Blu-Rays?

09-13-2008, 06:09 PM	#9
Russell_L Senior Member Member since:Nov 2007 Location:San Francisco Home Theater Gallery:2 4K collection:3 Blu-ray collection:800 DVD collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 11	That noise looks pretty awful on your screen captures. It certainly can't be normal! FWIW, the HDD review noted some noise as well: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1448/miamivice2006.html Quote: "The problem is video noise -- it's rampant throughout, especially in any remotely dark scene with subdued lighting."

09-13-2008, 06:14 PM	#10
GGX Banned Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Kentwood, Michigan Blu-ray collection:262 Trading Score:2	Keep in mind that Miami Vice was intentionally filmed in a very gritty, noisy style. Michael Mann deliberatly shot Miami Vice using Thomson VIPER high-def cams with a low iso setting. This creates video noise especially in darker scenes. Miami Vice is not meant to look absolutely pristine and crystal clear.

09-13-2008, 06:50 PM	#13
SoCalTiger Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Los Angeles, CA Blu-ray collection:1 Blu-ray reviews:1	Yeah that is completely not normal and not calibration either. No idea what would cause that. I suppose you could start by figuring out if there is a problem with your cables or player.

09-14-2008, 05:13 PM	#15
kiskiboy97 Blu-ray reviewer Top contributor Member since:Sep 2007 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:- DVD collection:- Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:2	Ben Williams wrote a great review of this movie a while back. Here is what he had to say about the video transfer. https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...32&show=review Miami Vice is presented on Blu-ray in its original theatrical aspect ratio of 2.35:1 using the VC-1 compression codec. Much has been made of the visual look at this movie and complaints have echoed across just about every internet forum where Miami Vice has been mentioned. Michael Mann and cinematographer Dion Bebee shot the movie entirely on HD video, much like Mann's prior film Collateral. The outrage that has erupted over Miami Vice seems to stem from its noisy and gritty look. Indeed, it is a messy looking movie. Noise is extremely prevalent throughout the image, especially scenes that take place in darkened rooms and at night. Those types of scenes make up about 90 percent of the movie. Colors are also desaturated and the entire film has an almost monochromatic feel to it. Yes, Miami Vice looks terrible, but it's supposed to. Anyone who saw the feature theatrically probably noticed the visual look of the film. This is not an instance where a bad encode has been thrust upon the public. In fact, I'm of the opinion that this Blu-ray release of Miami Vice is extremely accurate to the theatrical presentation. There is an almost endless list of digital artifacts present in Miami Vice. Obviously, noise is the primary cause of all the complaints while jaggies and strange color timing also add fuel to the fire. Of course, this is all intentional in Miami Vice so this is somewhat of a critic-proof transfer. Any critique of the look of the movie would have to be aimed at Mann and Bebee and that's something I'm not willing to do since I actually enjoy the unique look of this picture. One can certainly say that there aren't any other films in recent memory that share Miami Vice's distinctive look.

09-14-2008, 07:00 PM	#17
Riff Magnum Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Island Blu-ray collection:149	So is the grain in this movie at the level of something like "Inland Empire?" I don't think i could actually watch Colin Farrell long enough to give it a critique.

09-14-2008, 07:04 PM	#18
obiwopkenobi62 Blu-ray Samurai Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Mar 2008 Location:Deatsville, Al Home Theater Gallery:531 Blu-ray collection:1143 DVD collection:62 Blu-ray reviews: 2 Trading Score:6	After looking at the pics you posted I don't think it's the movies. You also mentioned seeing it in Oceans 11-12-13,other movies like Pirates of Carribean, Payback etc. although to a lower extent. I have not seen what you're describing in the Oceans Movies or Pirates movies. I also watched Miami Vice and din't see what was in your posted pics. I think your TV needs to be calibrated or there is something wrong with it. HDMI cables either work or they don't so I don't think it's your cables.

09-14-2008, 07:47 PM	#19
aramis109 Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Mar 2008 Location:Milwaukee, WI Home Theater Gallery:10 4K collection:4 Blu-ray collection:360 Trading Score:18	Payback and Miami Vice are both grain-heavy movies. You've picked two of the grainiest shots in that movie. What your screenshots show is the moire effect from your camera on TOP of that. As such, it honestly looks like crap. If your tv actually looks like those pics, look at swapping out the HDMI cable, checking your connections, calibrating your tv, or calling for service, because something is not right. That "screen door" effect (moire) is from the camera. The grain in the movies is intention. However, if it looks THAT bad, something is messed up.

09-14-2008, 08:26 PM	#20
Papi4baby Special Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:That man from Nantucket Blu-ray collection:32	are the lines the refresh rate??? banding??? or the TV is messup,am i the only one that see's them?

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