CD's - HDMI, Optical/Coaxial, or RCA?

[Kryptonic]

So which do you prefer to listen to CD's? I know it depends a lot on the DAC's in your players and receivers so I was curious. I recently hooked up my Sony DVP-NC85H using THX Standard RCA cables to my Denon AVR590 and found that CD's sounded warmer and more natural than using HDMI or Coaxial from either my Pioneer 410v or Sony. Both the Denon and Sony have 24 bit/192mhz DAC's. Just curious to get some opinions on the matter.

[Opips2]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

So which do you prefer to listen to CD's? I know it depends a lot on the DAC's in your players and receivers so I was curious. I recently hooked up my Sony DVP-NC85H using THX Standard RCA cables to my Denon AVR590 and found that CD's sounded warmer and more natural than using HDMI or Coaxial from either my Pioneer 410v or Sony. Both the Denon and Sony have 24 bit/192mhz DAC's. Just curious to get some opinions on the matter.

I prefer use RCA Stereo.

optical cable is downgrade sound because limit 24 bit/ 46 mHz stereo. It can't be more over 24 bit/ 46 mHz

RCA is superior audio and HDMI is more 24 bit/192 mHz

[Zman2k2]

I use my blu player as a CD player. It has a full set of 8-bit Burr-Brown DAC's in it, versus the 1-bit B-B's in my receiver. I use a set of BlueJeans Cable RCA's from my player to my receiver. I also have my receiver set to "Analog Direct" to make sure there is no extra processing. I love the sound this setup produces for me. I'm considering in the future buying a dedicated CD player, maybe the Emotiva ERC-1, but for now I'm happy with what I've got.

[Kryptonic]

I just want to get this straight that since I connect my DVD/CD player through RCA, then I will be utilizing the players DAC, correct, and not the receivers?

[Zman2k2]

I hesitate to just give you a "Yes". On my receiver, even if you connect with RCA's, you have to select the "Sound Mode" as well. It allows for surround channel processing, 192kHz processing, or no processing at all. The processing modes convert the analog signal to digital, process it, then convert from digital to analog. Check in your manual to see if there is any processing on the RCA inputs for your AVR, and see if you can bypass it.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

I hesitate to just give you a "Yes". On my receiver, even if you connect with RCA's, you have to select the "Sound Mode" as well. It allows for surround channel processing, 192kHz processing, or no processing at all. The processing modes convert the analog signal to digital, process it, then convert from digital to analog. Check in your manual to see if there is any processing on the RCA inputs for your AVR, and see if you can bypass it.

I just set it to "Stereo" on my Denon AVR590. It does process as DDPLII and Neo 6 as well. The 590 does have 24 bit/192khz processing. If I put it on Direct, nothing goes to the subwoofer.

Here's what the specs state:

24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices 24-bit/192-kHz ADAU1328

Analog-to-Digital Conversion - Bit Depth/Sampling Rate 24-bit/96-kHz

[Zman2k2]

Right. Because there is no processing, it doesn't go through an EQ or HP/LP filters in the receiver. Since it's a stereo signal, it's preserved as such in direct mode, and there will be no sound to the sub. If you leave it in one of the processing modes, what happens is what I described, it gets converted from analog-to-digital, the sound processing is added, then converted from digital-to-analog for output to the speakers. It's really up to you, which one sounds best. Personally, I prefer the direct mode, and I don't get output from my sub either.

The only way I'm aware of to have sub output in a direct sound mode is with a separate stereo pre/pro and an external amp. The pre/pro does apply HP/LP filters on the sound, to get a 2.1 sound output.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

Right. Because there is no processing, it doesn't go through an EQ or HP/LP filters in the receiver. Since it's a stereo signal, it's preserved as such in direct mode, and there will be no sound to the sub. If you leave it in one of the processing modes, what happens is what I described, it gets converted from analog-to-digital, the sound processing is added, then converted from digital-to-analog for output to the speakers. It's really up to you, which one sounds best. Personally, I prefer the direct mode, and I don't get output from my sub either.

The only way I'm aware of to have sub output in a direct sound mode is with a separate stereo pre/pro and an external amp. The pre/pro does apply HP/LP filters on the sound, to get a 2.1 sound output.

I do prefer it with subwoofer using the Stereo processing. If I had towers, it would probably be a different situation.

So HDMI and RCA would pretty much be the same correct? My Pioneer does 96khz/24 bit, not the 192khz/24 bit that the receiver does, but the sound would be transmitted to the receiver for decoding, correct?

[Zman2k2]

Okay, so using the RCA's and surround processing in your receiver, you will be using BOTH sets of DAC's.
Using HDMI, co-axial, or optical, you would only use the DAC's in the receiver.
If I were you, I would stick with the RCA's, because you probably get improved sound over just using the DAC's of the receiver, being as it's seeing an improved sound to begin with, as opposed to a straight digital signal.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

Okay, so using the RCA's and surround processing in your receiver, you will be using BOTH sets of DAC's.

You mean "both" as in both DAC's from the player and receiver?

I'm sorry, I'm just not quite sure what the difference is between these two on the Denon 590:

24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices 24-bit/192-kHz ADAU1328

Analog-to-Digital Conversion - Bit Depth/Sampling Rate 24-bit/96-kHz

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4881.asp

Using HDMI, co-axial, or optical, you would only use the DAC's in the receiver.
If I were you, I would stick with the RCA's, because you probably get improved sound over just using the DAC's of the receiver, being as it's seeing an improved sound to begin with, as opposed to a straight digital signal.

Yeah, it does sound more natural and warm. There's less of a difference using HDMI than coaxial though. But it's a pretty big difference between RCA and coaxial. The coaxial sounds muddled by comparison.

[Zman2k2]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

You mean "both" as in both DAC's from the player and receiver?



Yeah, it does sound more natural and warm. There's less of a difference using HDMI than coaxial though. But it's a pretty big difference between RCA and coaxial. The coaxial sounds muddled by comparison.

Yes, I mean both DAC's in the player and receiver. When you use RCA connectors, the player needs to convert the digital sound to analog, so it uses it's DAC's. Then the sound is sent over RCA's. When the sound is received in the AVR, it is converted from analog to digital using the AVR's DAC's. Then the AVR processes the sound, adding EQ settings, HP/LP filters, and any other sound options you want. It is then converted from digital to analog using another set of DAC's, and sent to the amplifier for sound out to your speakers.

As for sounding different on different cables, that's because of bandwidth restrictions. As Opips2 alluded to in his post, optical and coaxial have a restriction of 24bit/48kHz signal transfer. HDMI with it's improved bandwidth can transmit 24bit/192kHz signal, allowing for a more "open" sound to the signal.

I have to go out now, but I'll be back later to continue the conversation if you want. Later.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

Yes, I mean both DAC's in the player and receiver. When you use RCA connectors, the player needs to convert the digital sound to analog, so it uses it's DAC's. Then the sound is sent over RCA's. When the sound is received in the AVR, it is converted from analog to digital using the AVR's DAC's. Then the AVR processes the sound, adding EQ settings, HP/LP filters, and any other sound options you want. It is then converted from digital to analog using another set of DAC's, and sent to the amplifier for sound out to your speakers.

As for sounding different on different cables, that's because of bandwidth restrictions. As Opips2 alluded to in his post, optical and coaxial have a restriction of 24bit/48kHz signal transfer. HDMI with it's improved bandwidth can transmit 24bit/192kHz signal, allowing for a more "open" sound to the signal.

I have to go out now, but I'll be back later to continue the conversation if you want. Later.

So HDMI would pretty much be the same as RCA for the most part?

Thanks for all of the great information. Have a good day.

[Zman2k2]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

So HDMI would pretty much be the same as RCA for the most part?

Thanks for all of the great information. Have a good day.

Other than only using the AVR's DAC's, the bandwidth of RCA and HDMI is about the same. So yes, they sound similar. So between RCA's and HDMI, the only sound difference is what type of DAC is being used. Because different DACs do have different sound. Personally, I prefer the sound of a Wolfson or Burr-Brown DAC to a Cirrus DAC for example. Everyone, of course, will be different.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

Other than only using the AVR's DAC's, the bandwidth of RCA and HDMI is about the same. So yes, they sound similar. So between RCA's and HDMI, the only sound difference is what type of DAC is being used. Because different DACs do have different sound. Personally, I prefer the sound of a Wolfson or Burr-Brown DAC to a Cirrus DAC for example. Everyone, of course, will be different.

Is the Denon's pretty good?

24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices 24-bit/192-kHz ADAU1328

I haven't done a direct comparison against the Pioneer 410v with HDMI and the Sony with RCA. The sony can do 24 bit/192khz while the Pioneer only seems to do 24 bit/96khz.

[Zman2k2]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Is the Denon's pretty good?

Which Denon?

I haven't done a direct comparison against the Pioneer 410v with HDMI and the Sony with RCA. The sony can do 24 bit/192khz while the Pioneer only seems to do 24 bit/96khz.

That would be limitations of the DAC's included in the Pioneer versus the DACs in the Sony receiver. The Pioneer is good budget player, so they use cheaper DACs to keep the costs down. I'm not sure about the Sony though.

In the end, it really comes down to what sounds best to you. I've found the sweet spot for me, and that's a pure output from the player, through my AVR and out to my speakers. Play around with it, live with a setting for a while, and then move on to something new. You're bound to find something that's just what you're looking for.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Zman2k2

Which Denon?

My Denon receiver - the AVR590.

That would be limitations of the DAC's included in the Pioneer versus the DACs in the Sony receiver. The Pioneer is good budget player, so they use cheaper DACs to keep the costs down. I'm not sure about the Sony though.

The Sony Sony DVP-NC85H DVD player states it has 24 bit/192khz DAC, same as the Denon 590.

In the end, it really comes down to what sounds best to you. I've found the sweet spot for me, and that's a pure output from the player, through my AVR and out to my speakers. Play around with it, live with a setting for a while, and then move on to something new. You're bound to find something that's just what you're looking for.

I do prefer the sound using RCA cables as well. I was just wanting to understand why it sounds better to my ears. Such is my nature.

[Zman2k2]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

My Denon receiver - the AVR590.



The Sony Sony DVP-NC85H DVD player states it has 24 bit/192khz DAC, same as the Denon 590.

Probably similar DACs, made by different companies. Each will color the sound differently.

I do prefer the sound using RCA cables as well. I was just wanting to understand why it sounds better to my ears. Such is my nature.

Well, I understand wanting to know how things work. That's why I know a little about this. I hope I shed some light on the subject for you. Enjoy improved sound.

[ninel]

Originally Posted by Opips2

I prefer use RCA Stereo.

optical cable is downgrade sound because limit 24 bit/ 46 mHz stereo. It can't be more over 24 bit/ 46 mHz

RCA is superior audio and HDMI is more 24 bit/192 mHz

I prefer using RCA too, they also sound better to my ears.

When you say that optical is downgrade I understand it from the point of view of the bit/mHz limitation. But I find optical, way better for recordings, they are way superior when made with optical cable. I compared when recording from CD to CD; from CD to DAT, CD to MD and MD to MD.

So, IMHO RCA for listening, optical/coaxial for recording.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Opips2

optical cable is downgrade sound because limit 24 bit/ 46 mHz stereo. It can't be more over 24 bit/ 46 mHz

Is the same true for coaxial too as far as being limited to the above?

I'm using a THX Standard digital coaxial cable for my subwoofer connection and am wondering if it's limited at all.

Bought a pair of Monster I400MKII for $10 and was very surprised at how much clearer they sounded compared to the THX Standard cables. More more crisp and nuanced. Can't believe I've been disregarding RCA connections for so long.

Also, I was looking at getting a Denon DVD-558 which has Burr Brown 24/192 DAC refurbished. Would it offer an improvement over the Sony or Pioneer?

[browndk26]

Say you use a Bluray player as the CD player. Would you have to go in and change the sound output settings when you wanted to watch a movie?