HDMI cables - Blu-ray Forum

kusutare · 05-08-2007, 09:33 AM

so i was over at monoprice looking at some cables and wondering if anyone has noticed quality improvment between cables such as 28AWG HDMI , 26AWG HDMI , High-Quality 24AWG, and High-Quality 22AWG. can someone explain what makes them different, and which one would be best for the money.

Greenmatiz2 · 05-08-2007, 10:12 AM

There isn't going to be one bit of difference. I have a cheap $10 HDMI cable made in China. It's as thin as they get. Everything looks stellar.

Don't believe for a second that it will make a hill of beans difference with a digital signal. With digital, it either works or it doesn't.

Filterlab · 05-08-2007, 10:36 AM

Mmmm, not sure though.

I have a techlink HDMI cable which is a beast of a thing, and the results are superb.

However, I spent £400 on speaker cable so I may be slightly biased towards quality cables.

Good cables will yield more noticable results with analogue sources and less so with digital (as Greenmatiz said), although with digital it will still make a difference as digital signals are still delicate and will be susceptible to outside interference.

Greenmatiz2 · 05-08-2007, 11:03 AM

Trust me. There are better things to waste money on. I have never in my life heard interference over a digital connection.

It's not going to sound like static. You'd get pops and clicks that you just couldn't miss. The information being sent is just 0's and 1's. You'd have to have a strong electrical field to cause any problems, I'd imagine. A very strong one.

Blue · 05-08-2007, 11:07 AM

Assuming everything else is the same the only difference in gauge is resistance. The higher the current or the longer the distance the higher the voltage drop. HDMI signal is a VERY low current so distance is the only factor. The resistance difference between 2m and 15m would not be measurable with domestic ohm meters.

There are however many other factors with HDMI cables that could cause problems. There is a very high frequency signal being sent over the cable. High frequencies over wire are always problematic and the problems increase with distance and the increase in frequency. Long runs in this case 5m and over will moat probably be suited to the more expensive cables (Just be aware that there is a big profit margin with cables). As the signal is digital in all likelihood the cable will work or it won't (it won't be a subtle difference as in analogue unless the error correction is working overtime and just keeping the signal)

Rup_Muk · 05-08-2007, 12:28 PM

How is the following for a "non"-answer:
Everybody above is right. But, in varying degrees.

Greenmatiz, though, has hit the nail on the head in stating that signal degradation for digital transmissions is not that big a concern. This is because signal threshold detectors on the receiving equipment can "reconstruct" a pristine 0 1 binary signal. That being said, if the signal gets so garbled during transmission - there will be nothing to reconstruct.

As Blue said, digital signals are very high frequencies. Indeed, the transition of the signal from either a 0 to a 1 state (or vice versa) are often considered to be electrical discontinuities and can result in the generation of a lot of harmonic frequencies. However, cheap and expensive cables will encounter the same problems - leaving no particular advantage to either.

Speaker cables - that carry analog signals - are very susceptible to signal degradation - and that does get worse with distance. Basically, the longer the cable = greater bulk cable impedance. Therefore, it is important to get good speaker cables.

Bottom line: Digital cables like HDMI: don't sweat the price.

That's my $0.02.

Rup.

Greenmatiz2 · 05-08-2007, 01:00 PM

Yeah, I heard optical is better for long runs.

HDJK · 05-08-2007, 01:03 PM

Maybe, but optical can't carry uncompressed 5.1 or even 7.1 like HDMI can.

Greenmatiz2 · 05-08-2007, 01:04 PM

Right now, it can't.... I bet it can be made to, though.

HDJK · 05-08-2007, 01:05 PM

No it can't. The bandwith of optical is too narrow.

MatrixS2000 · 05-08-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenmatiz2

Yeah, I heard optical is better for long runs.

Optical is better period - it has no electrical properties so not subject to interference. The output is also a pristine signal.

Too bad they didn't use optical instead of electrical (HDMI) for the signal transfer - optical has way more bandwidth but I think the cost would have made it too expensive for consumer use.

MatrixS2000 · 05-08-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDJK

No it can't. The bandwith of optical is too narrow.

Untrue - the bandwith of optical is huge. Unfortunately the $ needed for the faster lasers would be more.

HDJK · 05-08-2007, 01:13 PM

Toslink a.k.a. optical

Quote:

TOSLINK is capable of sending only 3 simultaneous channels of audio, while the ADAT Lightpipe format accommodates up to 8 simultaneous channels of audio.

It's a 'spec thing'.

MatrixS2000 · 05-08-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenmatiz2

Right now, it can't.... I bet it can be made to, though.

Yes and it can be done multiple methods.

You could actually have a different "colour" of light carry different information on the same connection.

For example (and this is an extreme one as the below could easily be done with a single wavelength):

colour 1 - video
colour 2- front right
colour 3 - front left
colour 4 - centre
colour 5 - side right
colour 6 - side left
colour 7 - rear right
colour 8 - rear left
colour 9 - sub

MatrixS2000 · 05-08-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDJK

Toslink a.k.a. optical

It's a 'spec thing'.

Correct - the limitation is the spec - not optical.

HDJK · 05-08-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Correct - the limitation is the spec - not optical.

Yep, sorry, should have been a little clearer

MatrixS2000 · 05-08-2007, 01:18 PM

no worries - I really wish they would have looked at using optical.

I would rather spend a few $ and have a connection that will allow us to grow - optical would do that for us.

Now we are stuck with having to wait for new equipment (HDMI connections). If they would have spec'ed optical connections running at x Gb/s they could have just kept adding channels and a simple f/w upgrade to the equipment would have made it useable....

HDJK · 05-08-2007, 01:42 PM

Would have been nice yes, but it is a Toshiba product after all...

Greenmatiz2 · 05-08-2007, 01:50 PM

I figured that, because they use optical to carry so many thousands of phone conversations, it had to be capable of more.

TheOmegaSoldier · 05-08-2007, 02:29 PM

Sorry to hijack a thread, but i have a question pertaining to cheaper HDMI cables.

I'm not 100% familiar with the specifics, but are all hdmi cables hdcp capable? I saw one made by rosewill, sold by newegg that does not tell. Also, how do you tell if a cable will support HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 if it doesn't say?

cable in question :
http://www.rosewill.com/product/prod...?productId=766

05-08-2007, 09:33 AM	#1
kusutare Member Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:1	HDMI cables so i was over at monoprice looking at some cables and wondering if anyone has noticed quality improvment between cables such as 28AWG HDMI , 26AWG HDMI , High-Quality 24AWG, and High-Quality 22AWG. can someone explain what makes them different, and which one would be best for the money.

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05-08-2007, 10:12 AM	#2
Greenmatiz2 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	There isn't going to be one bit of difference. I have a cheap $10 HDMI cable made in China. It's as thin as they get. Everything looks stellar. Don't believe for a second that it will make a hill of beans difference with a digital signal. With digital, it either works or it doesn't.

05-08-2007, 10:36 AM	#3
Filterlab Senior Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:East Molesey, Surrey, UK	Mmmm, not sure though. I have a techlink HDMI cable which is a beast of a thing, and the results are superb. However, I spent £400 on speaker cable so I may be slightly biased towards quality cables. Good cables will yield more noticable results with analogue sources and less so with digital (as Greenmatiz said), although with digital it will still make a difference as digital signals are still delicate and will be susceptible to outside interference.

05-08-2007, 11:03 AM	#4
Greenmatiz2 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	Trust me. There are better things to waste money on. I have never in my life heard interference over a digital connection. It's not going to sound like static. You'd get pops and clicks that you just couldn't miss. The information being sent is just 0's and 1's. You'd have to have a strong electrical field to cause any problems, I'd imagine. A very strong one.

05-08-2007, 11:07 AM	#5
Blue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Melbourne Australia Blu-ray collection:206	Assuming everything else is the same the only difference in gauge is resistance. The higher the current or the longer the distance the higher the voltage drop. HDMI signal is a VERY low current so distance is the only factor. The resistance difference between 2m and 15m would not be measurable with domestic ohm meters. There are however many other factors with HDMI cables that could cause problems. There is a very high frequency signal being sent over the cable. High frequencies over wire are always problematic and the problems increase with distance and the increase in frequency. Long runs in this case 5m and over will moat probably be suited to the more expensive cables (Just be aware that there is a big profit margin with cables). As the signal is digital in all likelihood the cable will work or it won't (it won't be a subtle difference as in analogue unless the error correction is working overtime and just keeping the signal)

05-08-2007, 12:28 PM	#6
Rup_Muk Expert Member Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray collection:136 Blu-ray reviews:24 Trading Score:8	How is the following for a "non"-answer: Everybody above is right. But, in varying degrees. Greenmatiz, though, has hit the nail on the head in stating that signal degradation for digital transmissions is not that big a concern. This is because signal threshold detectors on the receiving equipment can "reconstruct" a pristine 0 1 binary signal. That being said, if the signal gets so garbled during transmission - there will be nothing to reconstruct. As Blue said, digital signals are very high frequencies. Indeed, the transition of the signal from either a 0 to a 1 state (or vice versa) are often considered to be electrical discontinuities and can result in the generation of a lot of harmonic frequencies. However, cheap and expensive cables will encounter the same problems - leaving no particular advantage to either. Speaker cables - that carry analog signals - are very susceptible to signal degradation - and that does get worse with distance. Basically, the longer the cable = greater bulk cable impedance. Therefore, it is important to get good speaker cables. Bottom line: Digital cables like HDMI: don't sweat the price. That's my $0.02. Rup.

05-08-2007, 01:00 PM	#7
Greenmatiz2 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	Yeah, I heard optical is better for long runs.

05-08-2007, 01:03 PM	#8
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	Maybe, but optical can't carry uncompressed 5.1 or even 7.1 like HDMI can.

05-08-2007, 01:04 PM	#9
Greenmatiz2 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	Right now, it can't.... I bet it can be made to, though.

05-08-2007, 01:05 PM	#10
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	No it can't. The bandwith of optical is too narrow.

05-08-2007, 01:18 PM	#17
MatrixS2000 Power Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:Toronto, Canada 4K collection:48 Blu-ray collection:305 Trading Score:6	no worries - I really wish they would have looked at using optical. I would rather spend a few $ and have a connection that will allow us to grow - optical would do that for us. Now we are stuck with having to wait for new equipment (HDMI connections). If they would have spec'ed optical connections running at x Gb/s they could have just kept adding channels and a simple f/w upgrade to the equipment would have made it useable....

05-08-2007, 01:42 PM	#18
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	Would have been nice yes, but it is a Toshiba product after all...

05-08-2007, 01:50 PM	#19
Greenmatiz2 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	I figured that, because they use optical to carry so many thousands of phone conversations, it had to be capable of more.

05-08-2007, 02:29 PM	#20
TheOmegaSoldier Member Member since:Apr 2007	Sorry to hijack a thread, but i have a question pertaining to cheaper HDMI cables. I'm not 100% familiar with the specifics, but are all hdmi cables hdcp capable? I saw one made by rosewill, sold by newegg that does not tell. Also, how do you tell if a cable will support HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 if it doesn't say? cable in question : http://www.rosewill.com/product/prod...?productId=766

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