Center channel/L/R matching ?

[canuckle]

OK, so the resident experts here seem to be Big Daddy, Crackin, and Ozzman, so I'm pleading for some advice here.

Current setup is this:

Panasonic TH-58PZ850U
Sony STR-DA1000ES
Panasonic DMP-BD55
Bell Express Vu 2942 Dual Tuner HD-PVR
Speakers F/C/R - NHT SB1 (bookshelf)
Speakers SR/SR - Mirage OmniCan 6 (in ceiling)
Sub Mirage Omni S10

Here's my plan...in the next 12 months I plan to replace the L/C/R, and upgrade to tower speakers for the L/R. Center will have to be horizontal, as it will sit in the stand below the TV, no choice there. Total budget for the 3 speaker upgrade will be 1500-2000.

HOWEVER...

I can swing upgrading the Center now. Here are my questions:

1. Do you agree with upgrading the Center, then L/R later?
2. What would you suggest for choices in the 300-600 range for the Center, with an eye on buying matching L/R later?
3. The Sony 1000ES allows EQ adjustment for L/R, but not Center. Problem? Each speaker's level can be adjusted individually.

Thanks for your consideration guys.

Mike

[blujacket]

I would wait and replace them together. You'll have better timbre.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by canuckle

Here's my plan...in the next 12 months I plan to replace the L/C/R, and upgrade to tower speakers for the L/R. Center will have to be horizontal, as it will sit in the stand below the TV, no choice there. Total budget for the 3 speaker upgrade will be 1500-2000.

HOWEVER...

I can swing upgrading the Center now. Here are my questions:

1. Do you agree with upgrading the Center, then L/R later?

Is there any particular reason as to why you can upgrade the center right now? a pending amazing deal you can get?

Originally Posted by canuckle

2. What would you suggest for choices in the 300-600 range for the Center, with an eye on buying matching L/R later?

this part id leave to the other members, i dont have the same speakers as you probably have, or want. i also cant configure it properly without the fronts too. i do suggest, as always to audition speakers, and find out which best sounds good to YOU. each person has a certain personal taste, making it a subjective preference.

Originally Posted by canuckle

3. The Sony 1000ES allows EQ adjustment for L/R, but not Center. Problem? Each speaker's level can be adjusted individually.

as long as you have a great center speaker, that is tonally matched to your prospect mains, you should be fine. im not a big fan of equalization at times, id rather have the speaker sound itself, without meddling with any tonal adjustments.

in regards to purchasing which one first, id suggest to consider purchasing the three of them at the same time. or if not feasible, id suggest to purchase fronts firsthand.

hoping i was able to help.

[canuckle]

Originally Posted by jomari

Is there any particular reason as to why you can upgrade the center right now? a pending amazing deal you can get?

Thanks for the reply jomari, no amazing deal really, just available $$ and the overwhelming desire to upgrade SOMETHING, lol.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by canuckle

OK, so the resident experts here seem to be Big Daddy, Crackin, and Ozzman, so I'm pleading for some advice here.

Mike

Why isnt my name on there?

on a serious note, id rather have to tell you to resist the purchase for now. although its not what you'd want to hear, id rather be blunt and tell you what others wouldnt.

do a LOT of research, and a lot of auditioning to find that perfect soundstage you would have. considering that the fronts and the center are what defines a good home theater system, id find myself investing as much as i feasibly can towards it.

once you've narrowed down your choices, audition them. audition them till your ears bleed.

Where are you located by the way?

our fellow canucks can possibly help out if ever you're on that side of town, and for the yanks here can help you based on your current location.

personally? i can definitely vouch for klipsch, but there are a number of other companies that you may want to look into. (some like Energy, some polks, a variety to be honest)

remember, these speakers will be with you for a great amount of time. you drop as much as you can on em, and your upgrade itch would be gone for a long time.

one shot. one kill.

[canuckle]

LOL, sorry jomari, haven't spent a lot of time in this forum, but I'm familiar with those guys from other posts, no offense intended

Appreciate the advice.

I'm in Regina SK btw.

Originally Posted by jomari

Why isnt my name on there?

on a serious note, id rather have to tell you to resist the purchase for now. although its not what you'd want to hear, id rather be blunt and tell you what others wouldnt.

do a LOT of research, and a lot of auditioning to find that perfect soundstage you would have. considering that the fronts and the center are what defines a good home theater system, id find myself investing as much as i feasibly can towards it.

once you've narrowed down your choices, audition them. audition them till your ears bleed.

Where are you located by the way?

our fellow canucks can possibly help out if ever you're on that side of town, and for the yanks here can help you based on your current location.

personally? i can definitely vouch for klipsch, but there are a number of other companies that you may want to look into. (some like Energy, some polks, a variety to be honest)

remember, these speakers will be with you for a great amount of time. you drop as much as you can on em, and your upgrade itch would be gone for a long time.

one shot. one kill.

[kingofgrills]

I'd resist the temptation to upgrade the center right now, and just save the $$$ until you can upgrade all three at once. Some hi-fi shops give a slight discount for packaged sales, so you could potentially save funds there. Also though, I don't think you'd want to potentially get caught between speaker model years, in case there are changes to the drivers or crossovers.

Resist the temptation, and use the time to tweak the placement and levels of your current setup. Often proper tweaking can deliver audible improvements, and that's like a free upgrade.

[Beta Man]

are you focusing on Towers for the L/R for any reason in particular? Just because you're looking for something to out-perform your current bookshelf speakers, doesn't mean that a different bookshelf will do exactly that


For $2,000 You could get something like this..... (which would be a great sound-stage in my opinion)

FRONTS....

Monitor Audio GS 10




CENTER

Monitor Audio GS Center




Sorry... shown in different finishes.... either way.... THOSE are some nice, mid-level offerings.... Good bang for your buck if you ask me

[canuckle]

Well, now that's an interesting question Beta Man.

I've assumed that, dollar for dollar, towers would outperform bookshelfs, with the deciding factor for many being esthetics and being able to accomodate the size. No?

Originally Posted by Beta Man

are you focusing on Towers for the L/R for any reason in particular? Just because you're looking for something to out-perform your current bookshelf speakers, doesn't mean that a different bookshelf will do exactly that


For $2,000 You could get something like this..... (which would be a great sound-stage in my opinion)

FRONTS....

Monitor Audio GS 10

CENTER

Monitor Audio GS Center

Sorry... shown in different finishes.... either way.... THOSE are some nice, mid-level offerings.... Good bang for your buck if you ask me

[jomari]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Just because you're looking for something to out-perform your current bookshelf speakers, doesn't mean that a different bookshelf will do exactly that

unless your looking at Dynaudios Contour series Heck even the focal 110s outperform my bookshelves.

But those are definitely out of the price range.

As mentioned, try to save up, and spend your TIME instead on looking for that particular speaker you may want in two years or so.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by canuckle

Well, now that's an interesting question Beta Man.

I've assumed that, dollar for dollar, towers would outperform bookshelfs, with the deciding factor for many being esthetics and being able to accomodate the size. No?

Not necessarily......

The increased cabinet space allows for better bass extension with towers typically.... or many may have multiple drivers..... but many don't..... For home-theater applications, Bookshelfs are still a great option because you're going to want you sub to handle the bulk of the low frequencies anyways.....

Also, I have bookshelfs, but they're pretty freakin' big as far as bookshelfs go.... and they have stands etc... so their footprint is every bit as large as towers anyways......

For $1,000 for a pair (for instance) you may find a pair of bookshelfs your best buy...... or a pair of towers..... basically you'll have to pit them against each other, and decide for yourself, but when auditioning, you have to keep in mind the fact that you'll be running a center and sub......

Either way.... just keep your options OPEN, and you'll do alright


EDIT:

just because you're looking for something to out-perform your current bookshelf speakers, doesn't mean that a different bookshelf WON'T do exactly that

Sorry.... I didn't make it very clear.... basically I think bookshelfs should be considered.... eek.... need more coffee!

[jomari]

this may lead to a very opinionated discussion. the whole tower vs bookshelf speakers is a very subjective topic at times, and hopefully others can keep an open mind towards this.

Originally Posted by canuckle

Well, now that's an interesting question Beta Man.

I've assumed that, dollar for dollar, towers would outperform bookshelfs, with the deciding factor for many being esthetics and being able to accomodate the size. No?

as beta man mentioned earlier, sure some towers can handle lower frequencies compared to their counterparts, but sometimes (based on klipsch' reference and synergy line) sometimes can hold its own (of course, we are comparing the same line, the same drivers (size of course), and done in ideal conditions.

you have to remember that in a home theater setting tho, most of the lower frequencies will be handled by the subwoofer, care of beta. in two channel (no sub) listening tho, it also would be advisable to have a set of fronts that can handle that as well.

the great thing about quality bookshelves is that not only can it perform the mids and highs of a tower, but can be placed much more conveniently within the living conditions. you can also consider adjusting the height of the speaker in order to afix the tweeters towards the line of 'sight' so to speak to get better imaging, thus the different heights of speaker stands.

at times tho, i noticed that others would prefer to have all matching speakers (including the surrounds) as a 5.1 system, but id disagree. a good example is having someone use towers all throughout the room, completing his 5.1 with tonal and sonic balance. in retrospect, id rather have all that money you've placed in purchasing those two surround towers, and use that to have better front channels (mains to be exact, and if allowing, a matching center), and then minimize the amount you dedicate for the surrounds (as long as the surrounds are tonally matching your front stage to prevent localization).

again, this is just the way i see things, and well, as an opinion its quite subjective.

Originally Posted by Beta Man

EDIT:
Sorry.... I didn't make it very clear.... basically I think bookshelfs should be considered.... eek.... need more coffee!

kinda got that part earlier. just wasnt sure.

invest your money in a great soundstage, fronts and center speakers, and then move towards the surrounds later on. not only will you get your moneys worth in the long run, you will enjoy years of sonic bliss when you know your hard earned money, time, and diligence in research and auditioning, has paid off.

on a quick whim, i say again,

you dont rush when you buy a house, or a car, why the hell would you do so with your home audio equipment?

[Big Daddy]

My advice is to buy three matching vertically oriented front speakers. I prefer vertical center speakers to horizontal center speakers. They perform better.

If you cannot fit a vertical center speaker under your TV, buy a center speaker with drivers (midrange and tweeter) that are not on the same line. However, make sure the three front speakers are from the same company and are from the same lime for proper timbre matching.

If you buy one center speaker now, you may run into difficulty finding two matching front speaker for it in the future.

[Travis]

What are the problems with tweeter and drivers on the same line?

I noticed more expensive ones have the tweeter dome on top, never gave it any thought.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by Travis

What are the problems with tweeter and drivers on the same line?

I noticed more expensive ones have the tweeter dome on top, never gave it any thought.

Check out BD's sticky on the subject of horizontal centers- it's some interesting reading.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Check out BD's sticky on the subject of horizontal centers- it's some interesting reading.

better yet, heres a spoon fed version...

link

on a side note, from what ive gathered from your inquiry, its the beloved MTM or midrange tweeter midrange you are referring to. that can be addressed with a brief but substantial read via spoonfed link.

now, if your question was towards the tweeters being aligned with your LR speakers, is that you want your LCR's tweeters to be in proportion to your listening area, more specifically your ears at your desired listening position (im assuming most of us are sitting down.)

so, think of it as a flashlight. while watching your movie, or what have you, one scene calls for the flashlight from the left speaker to blare you, then the center, then the right speaker. if you have a great soundstage, you wouldnt be able to localize where its coming from, thus removing any distraction that can be found during your viewing pleasure. the panning is smooth, and without any cause for you to refocus. Left... Center... Right... like a horizontally laid stoplight.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

My advice is to buy three matching vertically oriented front speakers. I prefer vertical center speakers to horizontal center speakers. They perform better.

If you cannot fit a vertical center speaker under your TV, buy a center speaker with drivers (midrange and tweeter) that are not on the same line. However, make sure the three front speakers are from the same company and are from the same lime for proper timbre matching.

If you buy one center speaker now, you may run into difficulty finding two matching front speaker for it in the future.

+1 I agree, and if neccessary - the OP could buy three vertically oriented bookshelf speakers. With his budget he would have a lot to choose from

[Travis]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Check out BD's sticky on the subject of horizontal centers- it's some interesting reading.

Thanks for the info.

Observation I had recently:

Moved to a new house; the dog is not happy, so the dog tore off the grille and tore out the left driver of my ceter speaker. I sent it to Taipei to replace missing driver, cost 4,000NT$=125US$

System note: B&W LCR60, not the bigest B&W center; matches 4 DM600-S3 I have.

While it was gone, for a week, I watched movies; set the AVR to no center.

Center came back and I felt the spoken track moved from the entire front to the narrowest portion of the middle of my room, under the TV. The sound is lower and not as full (sorry audiophiles maybe not the right terms). I know the new driver needs to break in, but I would think 3 speakers up front are better than 2, fuller sound.

Hard question to answer: What % of the sound is the center responsible for? It almost seems like the fronts aren't doing as much as they could or should, since the center came home. Can the center share some of its duties with the fronts?

[jomari]

Originally Posted by Travis

While it was gone, for a week, I watched movies; set the AVR to no center.

one very good reason why we need excellent front/main speakers, you want that good amount of dynamic range available for you and handle everything you throw at it. there are a number of my colleagues who prefer to listen two channel in the front, and completely disregard the center speaker (some use the 'phantom' technique instead)... mind you, with a perfectly set front, your mind wouldnt necessarily distinguish that you didnt even have one. tried it myself, and excellent response.

Originally Posted by Travis

Center came back and I felt the spoken track moved from the entire front to the narrowest portion of the middle of my room, under the TV. The sound is lower and not as full (sorry audiophiles maybe not the right terms). I know the new driver needs to break in, but I would think 3 speakers up front are better than 2, fuller sound.

Hard question to answer: What % of the sound is the center responsible for? It almost seems like the fronts aren't doing as much as they could or should, since the center came home. Can the center share some of its duties with the fronts?

the center performs about 80% of the details found in movies. thats why its important to have tonally matched front speakers. more on this when i get to work.


now that im back,

1. the reason you feel that the center became 'empty' or has less body or a lightness to it, is because of its dynamic range. you want it to handle as much of the frequencies as possible, without distortion. with the frequency range going down to as much possible, matching your fronts.

2. you also want a good performing speaker that can handle midrange frequencies. male voices, cellos, and other crash boom bang depend a lot on how a speaker can handle these frequencies, and not have a "sparkle boom boom" sound to it.

3. of course it should handle great explosions, or big screaming dinosaurs, it should also be capable of handling the great whispers, the hints of metal, the dust that crosses the desert. in a nutshell, any speaker can reproduce an explosion, but others can shine when it can do the smaller details without your ears straining. not. one. bit.

[canuckle]

I'm grateful for the responses gang, and I'm really interested in this discussion. BD's post on horizontal vs vertical centers actually was the one that got me thinking about this in the first place.

I understand the necessity to audition, and I will, extensively. I research everything, hence the questions here.

There's been a suggestion that bookshelves can do the job nicely, and give a vertical center. Monitor was one suggestion...any others?