Entry-level Turntable Decision

[kefrank]

So, I'm in the market for a new turntable. My vintage Dual 502 has been a good performer for the past few years, but I'm tired of tinkering with old equipment to keep it working. So, here's where I'm at right now with a new turntable in the $350 - $450 range:

Rega P1 - $395 (with upgraded OM20 stylus)
Strengths - best tonearm of the bunch, glass platter is inexpensive and valuable upgrade
Weaknesses - speed instability issues, no VTA, requires a Force Gauge to properly set up since there is no measurement ring

Pro-ject Debut III - $379
Strengths - Speedbox is a solid but expensive upgrade
Weaknesses - requires additional $20 counterweight for other cartridges, no VTA

Music Hall MMF-2.2 - $449
Strengths - heavier platter, decent tonearm, Speedbox is a solid but expensive upgrade
Weaknesses - price

Technics SL-1200MK2 - $370
Strengths - ease-of-use, durability, resale value
Weaknesses - tonearm, direct-drive, doesn't come with a cartridge

At the moment, I think it's coming down to the Rega or the Technics, but I'm intrigued by MMF-2.2, which appears to make significant improvements over the former 2.1. Anyone want to offer any suggestions or thoughts on these tables?

[richteer]

If you're at all interested in sound quality, forget about the Technics SL-1200. From an audiophile perspective, they leave a lot to be desired, and you can do better in the price range. Really.

Rega makes good budget 'tables, but I think their best stuff is higher up in their range. Their entry-level stuff suffers over here due to import costs frmo the UK. A Rega P3-23 with an acrylic platter would be nice, but outside your budget. Talking of which, how flexible is your budget?

The Pro-ject and Musichall would be good choices, though I have reservations about their metal platters.

[kefrank]

Thanks for your input, richteer. My budget is not very flexible. $450 is pretty much the max.

I'm not a hugely critical listener, but I also recognize that anything less than these options is not even worth considering. The Technics is on my list because a number of audiophiles at vinylengine believe strongly in it (most of them do mod it though) and it received a solid review on Audiogon as an audiophile table a few years ago. I think it often gets automatically dismissed because it isn't a belt-drive.

Anyway, I'm very intrigued by the MMF-2.2, because I think it's basically a Pro-ject Debut III with a better platter (coated alloy), better tonearm, and with the ability to adjust VTA.

For the record, I'll be using a Moving Magnet cartridge: either the Audio Technica AT120E/T that is on my current table or the cart that comes with these tables, whichever sounds better to my ears.

[mattconroy]

Hmm, I have the Technics and feel that it does the job nicely for a variety of music. It's an excellent, versatile reliable turntable with the right cartridge. Of course I'm no expert - I just know what I like - so feel free to discount my opinion.

Must be fun moving the positioning of the belt every time you want to go from 33 to 45 rpm.

[rded]

Originally Posted by richteer

If you're at all interested in sound quality, forget about the Technics SL-1200. From an audiophile perspective, they leave a lot to be desired, and you can do better in the price range. Really.

Rega makes good budget 'tables, but I think their best stuff is higher up in their range. Their entry-level stuff suffers over here due to import costs frmo the UK. A Rega P3-23 with an acrylic platter would be nice, but outside your budget. Talking of which, how flexible is your budget?

The Pro-ject and Musichall would be good choices, though I have reservations about their metal platters.

+1

[Johnny Vinyl]

The MusicHall looks eerily similar to my current Revolver Rebel table, which may have something to do with the fact they were closely intertwined many years ago.

Even though I'm replacing my Revolver Rebel with a new Marantz TT-15S1, it gave me over 20 years of wonderful satistfaction. If there are indeed similarities between the MusicHall and Revolver, I can say that a GRADO cartridge works excellent with it.

So if I had to narrow down your choice, my personal recommendation would be the MusicHall TT with an upgraded cartridge (perhaps down the road).

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by kefrank

Thanks for your input, richteer. My budget is not very flexible. $450 is pretty much the max.

Fair enough. In that case, the Music Hall is probably your best bet.

I'm not a hugely critical listener, but I also recognize that anything less than these options is not even worth considering. The Technics is on my list because a number of audiophiles at vinylengine believe strongly in it (most of them do mod it though) and it received a solid review on Audiogon as an audiophile table a few years ago. I think it often gets automatically dismissed because it isn't a belt-drive.

There's nothing wrong with non belt driven turntables per se, in fact many of the top rated turntable aren't belt driven. Examples that come to mind are The Rockport Sirius System III, various Clearaudios, and a few others.

The reason why we audiophiles don't think much of the Technics deck is because of it lack of sound quality. If you want a robust deck that can take abuse from DJing, yeah the SL-1200 is probably your best choice. But if want to set up a turntable in your home to listen to records, there are MANY other, better choices.

To each their own, but I know how high my standards are, and if I were starting again in your budget range, I wouldn't even begin to consider the SL-1200.

Anyway, I'm very intrigued by the MMF-2.2, because I think it's basically a Pro-ject Debut III with a better platter (coated alloy), better tonearm, and with the ability to adjust VTA.

For the record, I'll be using a Moving Magnet cartridge: either the Audio Technica AT120E/T that is on my current table or the cart that comes with these tables, whichever sounds better to my ears.

If you go with the Ortofon cartridges that those 'tables come with, you can upgrade them fairly cheaply by replacing the stylus. I think the 'tables come with the OM-5, which can be upgraded to an OM-20 just by changing the stylus. I'm a big fan of Moving Coil cartrdiges, but I appreciate that at this level they probably bring too many problems to the table (most notably that of low output levels).

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by richteer

If you want a robust deck that can take abuse from DJing, yeah the SL-1200 is probably your best choice.

Indeed. I already have one for just that purpose.

If you go with the Ortofon cartridges that those 'tables come with, you can upgrade them fairly cheaply by replacing the stylus. I think the 'tables come with the OM-5, which can be upgraded to an OM-20 just by changing the stylus.

Yeah, as noted, the place I'm considering getting the Rega P1 from automatically upgrades the stylus in the OM-5 cart to the OM-20 stylus at no extra charge, which is a selling point for sure.

This thread is definitely making me lean toward the Music Hall. I just wish I could find some actual owner reviews of it and I know nothing about the proprietary cart that it comes with.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by kefrank

Indeed. I already have one for just that purpose.


Yeah, as noted, the place I'm considering getting the Rega P1 from automatically upgrades the stylus in the OM-5 cart to the OM-20 stylus at no extra charge, which is a selling point for sure.

This thread is definitely making me lean toward the Music Hall. I just wish I could find some actual owner reviews of it and I know nothing about the proprietary cart that it comes with.

The cartridges that are supplied on any of those TT's are entry-level and I wouldn't worry about them. You can always upgrade later. It's the TT that is most important.

[kefrank]

Well, I am going in circles on this (which is typical for me). A few updates:

With a little research, I found out that the Music Hall Tracker cartridge is a rebadged Goldring Elektra (not bad - at least it's not an unknown entity anymore).

The more I read on other audio forums, the more intrigued I am with the Technics as an everyday table. Many discerning listeners (with other higher-end tables in their arsenal) seem to be keen on the quality that the Technics can offer.

richteer (or anyone else really) - I'd be curious to hear what it is about the sound quality of the 1200 that you find lacking in comparison to these other budget turntables. From what I've read, the main issues with the 1200 are:

-- Tonearm wiring is lower-quality and can cause coloration (this can be avoided by getting the M5G model which has higher-quality wiring)
-- the transformer in the power supply can cause slight hum
-- some people report ringing with the metal platter

[rded]

Originally Posted by kefrank

Well, I am going in circles on this (which is typical for me). A few updates:

With a little research, I found out that the Music Hall Tracker cartridge is a rebadged Goldring Elektra (not bad - at least it's not an unknown entity anymore).

The more I read on other audio forums, the more intrigued I am with the Technics as an everyday table. Many discerning listeners (with other higher-end tables in their arsenal) seem to be keen on the quality that the Technics can offer.

richteer (or anyone else really) - I'd be curious to hear what it is about the sound quality of the 1200 that you find lacking in comparison to these other budget turntables. From what I've read, the main issues with the 1200 are:

-- Tonearm wiring is lower-quality and can cause coloration (this can be avoided by getting the M5G model which has higher-quality wiring)
-- the transformer in the power supply can cause slight hum
-- some people report ringing with the metal platter

Those 3 thighs should be enough to deter you from it right?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by rded

[/B]

Those 3 thighs should be enough to deter you from it right?

Excellent point Rhett!

However kefrank, if you're more inclined to get the Technics....do so!

I may be going against the grain of our resident experts here, but at the budget $$$ you are playing with, and given the fact you have little expereince with sound that good analog can provide, it matters not so much.

The other thing to consider in your purchase is this..... "Is this TT a vehicle for just being able to play LP's or are you interested in being more immersed by the analog sound?" Ask yourself those questions and then make your decision.

John

[mattconroy]

Does it not also matter what other components you are going to pair it with? For example, I have a fairly inexpensive set of Yamaha speakers and a mid-range Denon receiver. I'm not sure that I would necessarily notice the difference if I were to spend an extra hundred or two hundred dollars for a slightly better audiophile turntable.

FWIW I have never noticed humming or ringing with my Technics.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by mattconroy

Does it not also matter what other components you are going to pair it with? For example, I have a fairly inexpensive set of Yamaha speakers and a mid-range Denon receiver. I'm not sure that I would necessarily notice the difference if I were to spend an extra hundred or two hundred dollars for a slightly better audiophile turntable.

FWIW I have never noticed humming or ringing with my Technics.

Having owned some pretty inexpensive gear way back when and before I was able to divert some cash into better equipment, I can still say that a better "front-end/source" made for improvement. I noticed this especially when I upgraded my old Gerrard changer( I have to laugh now as it brings back some great memories) to a Pioneer PL-15 with a Shure 95ED cartridge back in the early 70's. I thought I had died and went to audio heaven!

Like I said in my earlier post...what are you expecting from your analog source? Just playing a record or two because you can or looking to gain a better sound experience?

John

[mattconroy]

Originally Posted by John72953

Like I said in my earlier post...what are you expecting from your analog source? Just playing a record or two because you can or looking to gain a better sound experience?

John

More the latter. But even with components I have I notice a marked difference between the warmth of analog and digital sources, or at least enough of a difference to make my fairly modest investment worth it.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by mattconroy

More the latter. But even with components I have I notice a marked difference between the warmth of analog and digital sources, or at least enough of a difference to make my fairly modest investment worth it.

Yeah..I have no doubt you did and it's great to hear that you noticed that difference. Many don't for whatever reason.

All I can say Matt is this. If you want to get into the analog game and work your way up, there are better turntables out there than the Technics. And for the record, you don't have to spend thousands and thousands to get that feeling. Even my modest new Marantz will give me immense pleasure over my previous turntable. Baby-steps brother, baby-steps.

My dream is to get an ORACLE DELPHI V turntable and it was one I was planning on getting this year, but circumstances forced me to reconsider and lower my expactations for now. I will one day own that table however!

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by kefrank

The more I read on other audio forums, the more intrigued I am with the Technics as an everyday table. Many discerning listeners (with other higher-end tables in their arsenal) seem to be keen on the quality that the Technics can offer.

Be aware of what you read of other forums (this one too for that matter). The advice you get is worth every penny you paid for it. :-) For example, if you stumble across an SL-1200 fanboy forum, of course they're going to rave about it. Look for reviews from respected audiophile reviewers. There aren't that many kind words for the SL-1200 from them, and given the great choice of better regarded 'tables in this price bracket, why bother?

I actually think that most Technics SL-1200 fans haven't even investigated better 'tables, so their experience is rather limited. It's a bit like a guy arguing that his tuned up Ford Focus is better than a Porsche Boxer, despite never having drove the latter.

richteer (or anyone else really) - I'd be curious to hear what it is about the sound quality of the 1200 that you find lacking in comparison to these other budget turntables. From what I've read, the main issues with the 1200 are:

-- Tonearm wiring is lower-quality and can cause coloration (this can be avoided by getting the M5G model which has higher-quality wiring)
-- the transformer in the power supply can cause slight hum
-- some people report ringing with the metal platter

As someone else said, if the above isn't enough to deter you, what will be?!

I actually had a borrowed Technics turntable here for a while while my Forsell was not up to par (but I don't think it was the SL-1200). Basically, a lot was wrong, there was no real bass, treble wasn't as airy, and imaging left a lot to be desired.

[naturephoto1]

I just want to put in my $.02. Consider that with the possible exception of your speakers, the source components (be they turntable, CD player, DVD player, SACD/DVD-A player, or Blu-ray player) probably contribute the most and have the greatest affect on the sound of your system.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

I just want to put in my $.02. Consider that with the possible exception of your speakers, the source components (be they turntable, CD player, DVD player, SACD/DVD-A player, or Blu-ray player) probably contribute ultimately the most important and have the greatest affect on the sound of your system.

Rich

+1 Rich!

I remember having a discussion with Ken (RUR) about this very fact. His argument was that speakers had the greatest impact and mine was that I thought the source componant was more critical. It never got resolved because we were both right and wrong! It's a matter of personal opinion I suppose.

John

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by richteer

Be aware of what you read of other forums (this one too for that matter). The advice you get is worth every penny you paid for it. :-) For example, if you stumble across an SL-1200 fanboy forum, of course they're going to rave about it. Look for reviews from respected audiophile reviewers.

Ha, don't worry. I take all of this with a grain of salt. Sometimes it's hard to separate the fanboy zeal for any of these brands from objective, critical opinion. Two of the more convincing write-ups from what seem to be discerning listeners that I've found are these:
http://www.vinylengine.com/node/3030
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...10514&read&3&4

I actually think that most Technics SL-1200 fans haven't even investigated better 'tables, so their experience is rather limited. It's a bit like a guy arguing that his tuned up Ford Focus is better than a Porsche Boxer, despite never having drove the latter.

This is the case for fans of any particular turntable brand though, especially on the internet. I think there are just as many Rega and Pro-ject fans who have never even bothered to listen to the SL-1200 and immediately dismiss it. What has struck me about the SL-1200 is the opinions I've seen from people who own or have owned many of the usual suspects and still have praise for the Technics.

As someone else said, if the above isn't enough to deter you, what will be?!

Well, the latter two issues do not seem widespread and I suspect are picked up by some cartridges more than others or perhaps only noticed by more discerning listeners. I've really been digging to find the negatives on all of these models, so I don't want to overstate any of them. The first issue is non-existent in the M5G model, which I can get right at my budget ceiling. The reason I'm not really deterred is that the other tables I'm looking at all have their own sound quality issues according to my research. I'm going to be sacrificing something no matter which one I choose. The flipside is the positives. The 1200 seems to have some clear advantages out-of-the-box - namely pitch accuracy, less required maintenance, every necessary adjustment capability, and better bass performance, to name a few.

Another significant factor making me lean toward the 1200 is that I eventually need another one for my DJ setup, so if I get it now for an everyday table and don't feel like it's performing up to par, I can just transition it to DJ use and pick up a Rega or Music Hall down the line (a year or two from now, barring a lottery win or unexpected inheritance).

I actually had a borrowed Technics turntable here for a while while my Forsell was not up to par (but I don't think it was the SL-1200). Basically, a lot was wrong, there was no real bass, treble wasn't as airy, and imaging left a lot to be desired.

That's interesting, because reviews I've read point to bass as a strong point on the 1200. As I understand it, treble and imaging are not it's strengths, but with the right cartridge, it's competitive in those areas as well (for its price point of course).

For what it's worth, I'll be running the turntable with a Harman Kardon 3480 2-channel receiver (built-in phono stage for now) driving a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 speakers. Sometime in the future, I may pick up a Cambridge Audio 540p or 640p dedicated phono stage.