4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

According to the official spec paperwork –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

DCP for The Hunger Games: Catching Fire (2013)

Studio: Lionsgate
Image Format: 4K Scope [4096 x 1716]
Run Time: 2:26:02
Audio Format: 5.1/7.1
File Size: 190GB

When, fact of the matter is that the file size measures out at 139 GB.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

LCD panels have poor response times. Its measureable. Even at 60fps the best IPS panels have noticeable ghosting and/or overdrive artifacts. Everybody who has watched 60fps sports on LCD vs Plasma or CRT is already familiar with this. The problem doesnt go away above 60fps.

Yes, I’m familiar with having watched 60fps sports on all types of displays, including (other than plasma), another tech which uses pulse-count modulation, namely DLPs. And I’ve also read this classic paper, back in the day - http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200612229.pdf

Varg, I think we’re arguing semantics here (just like Anthony seems to be arguing what is best for him and I’m conveying what would be acceptable to me to at least gain access to an advanced feature [4k playability]) but with you it’s in regards to LCD motion portrayal capability. “Doing justice” to you means *gold standard*. “Doing justice” to me also encompasses *competence* to achieve acceptable value.

I also believe it’s moot to even consider CRTs or plasmas for if/when >60fps capture and display becomes commonplace. Obviously high frame rate material looks superior on OLED displays, but I don’t necessarily believe we all need to wait for that display technology to become consumer mainstream in order to find value in motion portrayal for home video, esp. not for 4kTVp60 with anything other than movies. If the consumer electronics industry believed that, they wouldn’t have made such a hoopla over upgrading HDMI 1.4 to 2.0.

Originally Posted by vargo

That's why it will be difficult to convince consumers int he near future of the benefits of HFR, improved color depth and all these other things. Joe Average buys a $400 TV with ghosting, lousy contrast and a 6-bit (!) panel.

I think that on the showroom floor at retailers like Best Buy, etc. that the difference between 4k/8bit material vs. 4k/10bit material (and for that matter, motion portrayal with low vs. high frame rate) at conventional home viewing distances will be far easier for consumers to appreciate than the difference between 1080p vs. 4k. One of the reasons why HEVC Main10 profile was developed was because support for 10-bit bit-depth is becoming more available in consumer displays.

[Penton-Man]

And since with above post #2162, I’m back to DCP’s, I think it’s poor form that Walt Disney Studios in a movie about Walt Disney, namely Saving Mr. Banks

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Heads-up to any Englanders reading from the Wells, Bristol, etc. area.
It’s not 4K but, good flick….good cause -
http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Char...#axzz2lXhBNqhH

didn’t finish the motion picture in 4K when it was it was shot in anamorphic format, full Academy aperture and contains almost no VFX.

Jeez.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, I’m familiar with having watched 60fps sports on all types of displays, including (other than plasma), another tech which uses pulse-count modulation, namely DLPs. And I’ve also read this classic paper, back in the day - http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200612229.pdf

Varg, I think we’re arguing semantics here (just like Anthony seems to be arguing what is best for him and I’m conveying what would be acceptable to me to at least gain access to an advanced feature [4k playability]) but with you it’s in regards to LCD motion portrayal capability. “Doing justice” to you means *gold standard*. “Doing justice” to me also encompasses *competence* to achieve acceptable value.

I also believe it’s moot to even consider CRTs or plasmas for if/when >60fps capture and display becomes commonplace. Obviously high frame rate material looks superior on OLED displays, but I don’t necessarily believe we all need to wait for that display technology to become consumer mainstream in order to find value in motion portrayal for home video, esp. not for 4kTVp60 with anything other than movies. If the consumer electronics industry believed that, they wouldn’t have made such a hoopla over upgrading HDMI 1.4 to 2.0.

Well, on my LCD TV I can play games at 1080p60 in 2D, which look staggeringly smooth and detailed. My point being, I'm a firm believer that increasing temporal resolution for home video will still benefit people with such "poor" TVs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, on my LCD TV I can play games at 1080p60 in 2D, which look staggeringly smooth and detailed. My point being, I'm a firm believer that increasing temporal resolution for home video will still benefit people with such "poor" TVs.

There’s hope for ‘the common man’ with ‘a common display’ . You need not shop for elite products before New Year’s….
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-mon...monitors.shtml

[Penton-Man]

Not that consumers have access to it live but, testing 4K @ 60fps in less than one hour with U-Vay –
http://advanced-television.com/2013/...ests-ultra-hd/

[Penton-Man]

So anyway, to avoid an extremely technical and tedious discussion with OLED hold-outs as to the causes of motion blur (both in moving edges and texture) with LCDs (i.e. which are due to a combination of intrinsic response time of the panel, signal processing and ‘sample and hold’ type presentation) –

Since 4k enhancements will most likely occur in a step-wise incremental fashion, expect 10-bit bit-depth material to come to consumers sooner than HFR (>60fps, for example, 120fps acquisition and playback) because just for the latter, the bandwidth required will make the higher frame rate end-to-end implementation the more expensive (much more) of the two.

So, what is the benefit of viewing 10-bit material (over 8-bit)?

1. It reduces artifacts (like banding which can become more obvious at higher resolution, e.g. 4k).
2. It maintains color fidelity for the latest gen 10 bit displays.

In a nutshell, it’s a good, and relatively cheap upgrade to basic 4k, after we acquire 4k 24fps-> 4k/ 60fps with HDMI 2.0. Let's get dem HEVC Main10 decoder chips into devices before I turn into a poor-sighted old man.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

or else I couldn’t have ever *survived* those costly ramifications with a Time Warner DVR over the years for recording/deleting football games, TV shows and soccer matches

seriously you are comparing purchased content to a show (or even worst a sporting event) that you DVRed. I did not say that there can't be things that are ephemeral (record it/see it/delete it) but when you purchase a film that is not what you do, you bought it for a reason.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As far as ‘hoping for’, personally, the only thing I’m hoping for is the opportunity next summer to view the World Cup final match displayed in 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 @60p within a reasonable driving distance of my home….and, of course that it’s at least a fairly good match....

Why?
Because IBC delegates saw it was superb with rugby…

Sony Professional: Bringing live rugby to IBC 2013 in 4K - YouTube

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

seriously you are comparing purchased content to a show (or even worst a sporting event) that you DVRed. I did not say that there can't be things that are ephemeral (record it/see it/delete it) but when you purchase a film that is not what you do, you bought it for a reason.

What do you mean, even worse? My team is poor theatre! Drama, suspense, courage, cowardice, passion, euphoria, amazement, devastation, hope, loss and every other emotion all contained in a 90 minute display. On top of all that, you get a blond bombshell in the crowd! (Me)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As far as ‘hoping for’, personally, the only thing I’m hoping for is the opportunity next...

Honestly, I do have one other hope. That next spring, this motion picture

"Penton-The John Penton Story"-Kickstarter Campaign Video - YouTube

plays on the big screen at a theater near me – https://gathr.us/films/penton , as the kickstarter campaign was successful.

A Happy Thanksgiving wish goes out to John (the toughest motorcycle racer I ever knew)…

Penton Conversations #1-John Penton on Pain Threshold - YouTube

….and all Blu-ray.com members/readers .

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

What do you mean, even worse? My team is poor theatre! Drama, suspense, courage, cowardice, passion, euphoria, amazement, devastation, hope, loss and every other emotion all contained in a 90 minute display. On top of all that, you get a blond bombshell in the crowd! (Me)

I could , somehow, understand someone might PVR a show every week and re-watch all the episodes again before the ne season or something like that (personally I prefer getting the BDs for that) so there might be a reason to keep some episodes for some extended time. But there is little reason to PVR a game and even less to want to re-watch it at a later date.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I could , somehow, understand someone might PVR a show every week and re-watch all the episodes again before the ne season or something like that (personally I prefer getting the BDs for that) so there might be a reason to keep some episodes for some extended time. But there is little reason to PVR a game and even less to want to re-watch it at a later date.

Let me give you an example. I come from a part of England that is extremely passionate about football (north-east) we recently beat our great rivals Newcastle at home and a win like that boosts the whole city as, like I said, we breathe football generally in this city. Now, I recorded the match with my PVR and by Sunday night I had already watched the highlights several times. By the following Sunday I had rewatched the goal around 30 times. I now have a collection of SAFC matches on DVR that I will probably stick on disc at some point. To my annoyance, the Newcastle game was deleted accidentally, but that is beside the point. If this explanation still baffles you then IMO you can't grasp the love of football that people in England (and our friends in USA) have for the greatest sport in the world. Also, I am guessing that a great number of city fans still have that title winning, last minute goal by Augerro on their PVR.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Honestly, I do have one other hope. That next spring, this motion picture

"Penton-The John Penton Story"-Kickstarter Campaign Video - YouTube

plays on the big screen at a theater near me – https://gathr.us/films/penton , as the kickstarter campaign was successful.

A Happy Thanksgiving wish goes out to John (the toughest motorcycle racer I ever knew)…

Penton Conversations #1-John Penton on Pain Threshold - YouTube

….and all Blu-ray.com members/readers .

Hope you enjoy.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Hope you enjoy.

Thank you . It was a freaking ‘afuera gathering’ ( http://www.livescience.com/14336-lar...ng-afuera.html ) but in our case, involving humans feasting on turkey with all the trimmings (including, as a side note to my old friend interested in 4K DCPs and such, namely EatingPie - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ie#post7545925 ) for a plethora of different types of pies were brought by all zee relatives.

The tradeoff? ....now I’ve got to ride my arse off over the next several days to get back to my pre-Thanksgiving weight.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

HDMI 2.0...

As proudly announced last September that HDMI 2.0 ( http://gizmodo.com/hdmi-2-0-is-here-...udi-1250224581 ) is able to transport up to 18 Gbps (actually to be more precise, 17.52 Gbps).

Mind teaser…..
When is being 6ft. tall closer to like being about……..3½ feet tall?
When is driving 60mph closer to like driving about…..36mph?

It’s like when (due to hardware limitations) *HDMI 2.0* software upgrades in fact are only capable of transporting about 50-60% that bandwidth (10.2 Gbps with dem hamstrung HDMI chips)…. http://advanced-television.com/2013/...a-4k-displays/

Yes, with the ‘HDMI 2.0’ software upgrades, displaying 4k @ 60fps will be possible (which, don’t get me wrong, is a good thing for 4k), but there will be no 4k/60/10 bit capability with that firmware upgrade as noted by the blogger at Advanced Television. So, consumers don’t really get true HDMI 2.0 capability or full HDMI 2.0 capability, or as gizmodo describes "kickass capability".

I wonder if HDMI 2.0 eventually gets marketed as “full HDMI 2.0”, like the sticker on the front of one of my old TVs states in glossy colors “full HD”.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Canada

...Joe Kane was saying 12 bit 4:4:4 could actually save space because doing 4:4:4 will introduce a lot less artifacts than 4:2:0

It takes higher bit rates to encode 4:4:4 as opposed to the color subsampling of 4:2:0 (or 4:2:2) with the result of there being only a small perceived picture quality improvement involving real world imagery. It’s of more value, for instance, going from 8 bit -> 10 bit. This is why including 4:2:0 as a parameter value (in thee often quoted) ITU-R BT.2020 recommendation ( http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf ) was added without much hesitation or debate by the brain trust , unlike as previously noted, was the case with…

the signal format parameter….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...at#post7361160

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thank you . It was a freaking ‘afuera gathering’ ( http://www.livescience.com/14336-lar...ng-afuera.html ) but in our case, involving humans feasting on turkey with all the trimmings (including, as a side note to my old friend interested in 4K DCPs and such, namely EatingPie - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ie#post7545925 ) for a plethora of different types of pies were brought by all zee relatives.

The tradeoff? ....now I’ve got to ride my arse off over the next several days to get back to my pre-Thanksgiving weight.

Cool, just out of interest what is your pie of choice? (Sweet or savoury)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...unlike as previously noted, was the case with…
the signal format parameter….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...at#post7361160

To be a little more clear…when experiments were performed with constant luminance and HEVC compression (see summary Table 17 on p.74 of B.T.2246 – http://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb...2012-PDF-E.pdf (which is far more detailed that B.T.2020)

evidence showed an improvement in coding efficiency with CL and there also have been several studio post production studies comparing constant to non-constant luminance where there is a perceived advantage to using constant luminance, but

problem is, past studies showed constant luminance has brought advantages with certain imagery; whereas, in other instances, no advantage has been demonstrated over the more traditional non-constant luminance…thus the reason for the huge debates among contributing engineers/scientists on the signal parameters portion of the BT.2020 recommendation.

[Penton-Man]

^
P.S.
To those wondering as to some of the reasoning behind how 10 bit and 12 bit bit-depths were recommended in BT.2020 for UHD, see p.39 of the pdf link on the last page. Also make note that 8 bit was not included in the BT.2020 recommendation.