8K discussion thread

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yep, and something people don't realise about all them old 65mm and VistaVision epics is that the film stock of the time wasn't as sharp as what we have now. Some professionals have even said that the resolving power of today's 35mm is akin to 65mm from, say, 60 years ago, and with the grain in Lawrence of Arabia's 4K HDR looking very chunky and 35mm-ish I can believe it. The 10 Commandments is another example, despite being shot on 8-perf VV and having a 6K restoration there's only a tiny fraction of extra detail in the UHD vs the BD.

Even Robert Harris has said more than once that he prefers the 4K DCP of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA to the restored 70mm prints.

Chris

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

Even Robert Harris has said more than once that he prefers the 4K DCP of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA to the restored 70mm prints.

Chris

Not 8K related but he also said he preferred the data of The Godfather's restoration to the new prints that were created (though Gordon Willis wasn't happy with those either to be fair).

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Not 8K related but he also said he preferred the data of The Godfather's restoration to the new prints that were created (though Gordon Willis wasn't happy with those either to be fair).

While perhaps they weren't perfect, Willis flat-out said during the post-screening Q&A for a 35mm film-out print of Harris' 4K restored THE GODFATHER that I attended back in 2008 that the color of the print we had just watched was "dead on".

Chris

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

While perhaps they weren't perfect, Willis flat-out said during the post-screening Q&A for a 35mm film-out print of Harris' 4K restored THE GODFATHER back in 2008 that the color of the print we had just watched was "dead on".

Chris

Maybe it was the first attempts, as Willis definitely wasn't happy with those. From AmCin:

However, at press time, the new prints were works in progress. After screening them in New York, Willis had this to say: “I think a remarkable job was done repairing all the damage done to the negative — very difficult work. The Godfather is a very good-looking picture now. They have not tried to dial anything into the film that wasn't there before.” That said, he continues, “I’m the first to admit that the darker material, especially in Part II, is difficult to reproduce properly; it was beautiful on dye-transfer, but at the moment, the positive available isn’t doing the job we all hoped for. The print stock I saw doesn’t produce a full and comfortable range from black to white, and the mid range is compressed as well. Everyone is pursuing a solution.”

https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/May20...cus/page1.html

[Geoff D]

As regards large format of old matching 35mm of new, I found another old AmCin article about the restorations of Carousel and The King and I (which were CinemaScope55 features) where Fox's Schawn Belston also said that modern 35 would be the match of old 55:

“While there is a lot of image area in the 55mm negatives, the film stocks of that era were primitive by today’s standards. Both Carousel and The King and I were made just three years after Kodak released its first color negative film stock. One reason Fox originally opted to go with the 55mm format was that the negative stocks were low-resolution and very grainy, and the larger image area compensated for that. With today’s fine-grained film stocks, a contemporary 35mm negative can have the resolving power that the 55mm system had back then.”

https://theasc.com/magazine/june05/postfocus/index.html

[Christian Muth]

Yeah, I think his main issue was that the modern Eastman prints couldn't reach the same level of pure black as the original I.B. Technicolor prints could, but based on his post-screening comments at that screening (it wasn't actually a Q&A, but a post-screening discussion with Gordon Willis and Allen Daviau moderated by former NY Times film critic Janet Maslin. Robert Harris was also at the screening but didn't participate in the discussion, although a statement from him re: the restoration was read before the screening started) indicated that at least in terms of the color, he was very happy. Also, bear in mind that this was only in regard to the print of the first film. They screened a print of the Harris 4K restored THE GODFATHER PART II the next night, but I wasn't able to attend that one.

These screenings occurred at the Jacob Burns Film Center in New York State. THE GODFATHER screening was a "surprise screening", meaning that aside from invited people, the audience had no idea what they were about to see beyond that it was a restored print of a classic film. When the lights dimmed and that iconic music faded up, there was an audible gasp in the crowd followed by applause. It was an amazing screening to say the least, especially with that post-screening discussion with Willis and Daviau.

Chris

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As regards large format of old matching 35mm of new, I found another old AmCin article about the restorations of Carousel and The King and I (which were CinemaScope55 features) where Fox's Schawn Belston also said that modern 35 would be the match of old 55:



https://theasc.com/magazine/june05/postfocus/index.html

I feel like Super-16 today probably matches Techniscope back in the 60s. It's interesting that 2-perf 35 has come back and is being used by certain filmmakers combined with a DI finish, and those films look very finely grained (see the films of Steve McQueen and David O'Russell), and then you have Darren Aronofsky shooting in Super-16 and cropping to 'Scope.

Chris

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

I feel like Super-16 today probably matches Techniscope back in the 60s. It's interesting that 2-perf 35 has come back and is being used by certain filmmakers combined with a DI finish, and those films look very finely grained (see the films of Steve McQueen and David O'Russell), and then you have Darren Aronofsky shooting in Super-16 and cropping to 'Scope.

Chris

Right? When I watched The Wrestler and Black Swan I thought they were on the lower end of 35, maybe 2-perf as you say, but nope - they were both shot on Super 16 (mostly). The DI helped but even so, the resolving power of modern stocks is remarkable.

[Lee A Stewart]

Is 8K Ready for Primetime?

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/is...-for-primetime

[KubrickKurasawa]

I'm ready for my 4K and 2k collections upscaled to 8K. So yes. Yet the price increase right now is kinda ugly atm.

[Bunty2]

8k is the next 3D, unfortunately. It may not get beyond 3D.

[Lee A Stewart]

Is 8K’s Future Under Threat From the European Union?

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/is...european-union

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Is 8K’s Future Under Threat From the European Union?

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/is...european-union

Maybe in 2026+ there will be some 8K projectors to choose from, and projectors have different energy requirements. France is 70% nuclear energy, so they have plenty of power for their own country and should not fall under the energy requirements for 8K displays. In the ideal world the European Union should be approving countries to build state of the art 21st Century large, medium, and small nuclear power plants. Each European country would be responsible for their own homeland security program doing background checks for people applying for jobs and working at the nuclear power plants. With a large clean nuclear power plant that is 100% immune from EMP/CMEs with passive cooling, it would provide plenty of clean electricity with no CO2 emissions for the countries in Europe (with the reactor always being cooled with the latest passive cooling technology no matter what conditions occur). People could heat and power their homes with cheap nuclear electricity within 5 to 7 years once the power plants are built and money exists to build the power plants (It only takes 5 to 7 years to build a nuclear power plant). Say goodbye to energy inflation if nuclear power is approved. Then people can use as much power as they want and 8K flat panels and other consumer electronics would not have such strict power requirements.

Only around 20% of the United States gets its power from nuclear energy. France is the world leader when it comes to nuclear power plants. France is already 70% nuclear power for its citizens and would be the ideal country to live in with a 100% electric car. If France went from 70% to 100% nuclear power one day by building a new large nuclear power plant, and then also in decades to come with 100% electric vehicles and motors, that would be ideal for clean air. The entire country of France could be generating absolutely zero CO2 emissions in the future. France could become the first country in the world with zero CO2 emissions if they wanted too. France is almost there already. It's possible to convert all power companies, all transportation, and all industry to 100% zero CO2 emissions for every country in the world with the help of artificial intelligence and the latest technology. All new electric motors could be created for airplanes, trains, boats, lawnmowers, etc. With super conductor technology in decades to come it might be possible to sell electricity from a large nuclear power plant from one country to another country over several thousands of miles of power cable with no energy loss. The theoretical super conductor power cable does not have any heat, no resistance, and with massive current carrying capability (not invented yet, theoretical technology super conductor cables at regular outdoor temperatures).

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Right? When I watched The Wrestler and Black Swan I thought they were on the lower end of 35, maybe 2-perf as you say, but nope - they were both shot on Super 16 (mostly). The DI helped but even so, the resolving power of modern stocks is remarkable.

That is really cool!

I am tempted to get some vintage 80s Ektachrome and test it compared to the modern E100G stuff, although it may be hard to do a truly fair comparison as even frozen Ekta would lose a bit dynamic range due to fogging from cosmic rays.

The only thing I've been able to test is Fuji Velvia from say 2009 that I've had in my freezer that I brought on vacation to Philadelphia this spring. To my eye, I can't detect any fogging but 14 years is not 40.

Also, I did not know 55mm stock was a thing until you linked to that ASC article above.

[Rajzolja]

Everything is in correlation: in 4 years, we'll have h.266 aka. VVC and AV2 next-gen codecs, HW encoding/decoding budget GPU-s, widespread 8K filming in Hollywood, cheap and energy-efficient* 8K TV-s, HDMI 3.0 with loseless 8K 120Hz HDR-16 4:4:4, 8K (MFT, iPhone, GoPro etc.) cameras, 8K VR headsets etc.

1996: DVD
2006: Blu-ray
2016: Ultra-HD Blu-ray
2026: 8K Blu-ray

and

1999: PS2 with DVD
2006: PS3 with Blu-ray
2013: PS4 with Blu-ray 3D
2020: PS5 with Ultra-HD Blu-ray
2027: PS6 with 8K Blu-ray

I'm sure, that was the plan. I'm not sure that the bandwidth of the Internet connection will be able to serves this data traffic (hundreds of Mbits). Today there isn't any streaming service that could compete Ultra-HD discs, so for the best picture in this decade, we will need 8K Blu-ray. If we don't get 8K Blu-ray, we will get reduced 8K picture quality of streaming services.

* OK with 2023's EU rules

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Rajzolja

Everything is in correlation: in 4 years, we'll have h.266 aka. VVC HW encoding/decoding budget GPU-s, widespread 8K filming in Hollywood, cheap 8K TV-s, HDMI with loseless 8K 120Hz HDR-16 4:4:4, same quality 8K (MFT, iPhone, GoPro etc.) cameras, 8K VR headsets etc.

1996: DVD
2006: Blu-ray
2016: Ultra-HD Blu-ray
2026: 8K Blu-ray

and

1999: PS2 with DVD
2006: PS3 with Blu-ray
2013: PS4 with Blu-ray 3D
2020: PS5 with Ultra-HD Blu-ray
2027: PS6 with 8K Blu-ray

I'm sure, that was the plan. I'm not sure that the bandwidth of the Internet connection will be able to serves this data traffic (hundreds of Mbits). Today there isn't any streaming service that could compete Ultra-HD discs, so for the best picture in this decade, we will need 8K Blu-ray. If we don't get 8K Blu-ray, we will get reduced 8K picture quality of streaming services.

Don't quit your day job, You'll starve as a prognosticator.

Are you aware that come March of next year, no 8K TVs can be sold in Europe due to higher electric use which makes them unsaleable. Tell us how this fits in with your future plans.

Enjoy 4K UHD-BD - it's the last physical format you will see. The BDA has already confirmed this.

[Rajzolja]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Don't quit your day job, You'll starve as a prognosticator.

Are you aware that come March of next year, no 8K TVs can be sold in Europe due to higher electric use which makes them unsaleable. Tell us how this fits in with your future plans.

Enjoy 4K UHD-BD - it's the last physical format you will see. The BDA has already confirmed this.

There are solutions to create 8K TV-s with smaller consumption, the manufacturers will solve it. It's only a technological problem, what was interpreted by journalists few weeks ago. Maybe we won't see 100-inch huge TV-s for a while in Europe (what I haven't seen yet in real), but 8K won't disappear just because the EU made the consumption limit lower. It seem to be an irrelevant resolution, but I think the reason is that it's the last marketable step, so it needs time. When every device category is ready for 8K, the Blu-ray 8K arrives.

BDA say what the consumers need to hear to buy the 4k discs. When the time is here, they will change their minds.

Or not. Fortunately, if I was wrong, nobody would die.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Rajzolja

There are solutions to create 8K TV-s with smaller consumption, the manufacturers will solve it. It's only a technological problem, what was interpreted by journalists few weeks ago. Maybe we won't see 100-inch huge TV-s for a while in Europe (what I haven't seen yet in real), but 8K won't disappear just because the EU made the consumption limit lower. It seem to be an irrelevant resolution, but I think the reason is that it's the last marketable step, so it needs time. When every device category is ready for 8K, the Blu-ray 8K arrives.

BDA say what the consumers need to hear to buy the 4k discs. When the time is here, they will change their minds.

Or not. Fortunately, if I was wrong, nobody would die.

You are not aware of how extensive the issue is. Samsung's 65" 8K QLED TV's power consumption is 220 watts with 360 watts max for HDR. The new specifications call for 112 watts.

This restriction also affects high end large 4K TVs which are also restricted to 112 watts - same as 8K TVs.

Each time they release a new physical media, the total market for that media shrinks. Right now, we are coming up on 4K UHD-BD's 7 year anniversary: Feb. 2016 was the date they first appeared on store shelves. That market is less than 10% of the total physical media sales. They will not release an 8K BD format knowing it will get about 1% market share. Not enough money to cover R&D and increased production costs.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Rajzolja

There are solutions to create 8K TV-s with smaller consumption, the manufacturers will solve it. It's only a technological problem, what was interpreted by journalists few weeks ago. Maybe we won't see 100-inch huge TV-s for a while in Europe (what I haven't seen yet in real), but 8K won't disappear just because the EU made the consumption limit lower. It seem to be an irrelevant resolution, but I think the reason is that it's the last marketable step, so it needs time. When every device category is ready for 8K, the Blu-ray 8K arrives.

BDA say what the consumers need to hear to buy the 4k discs. When the time is here, they will change their minds.

Or not. Fortunately, if I was wrong, nobody would die.

It would help a little if disc wasn't dying on its arse though, you know? There are other people on here like you who robotically recite these timetables as if they were stone tablets sent down from God, but you all are paying zero attention to the market forces that are currently driving the consumption of media in the home. Spoiler alert: video disc is waaaaaaay down on that list.

It'll remain as a niche thing for a while yet but no-one, no-one, is going to force through an 8K update for pre-recorded mass-replication Blu-ray in an environment when the market is literally shrinking day by day, year on year. Add in the rumours that Pannysonic are going to be pulling out of the disc player market next year and wow, the options for who in the BDA would even be capable of producing and releasing 8K playback hardware are growing ever more limited. Sony and LG are gonna be the last two standing, both with vested interests in 8K to be sure to drive their 8K TV sales but that's another thing: where's all the hype for 8K?

For years before the release of HD software we were still hearing about HD remasters, for years before the release of UHD software we were still hearing about 4K remasters, but where's all that guff for 8K? You won't find it because for most movies 8K is the most diminished of returns so they're not finished out to that resolution. Overscanned at point of source, certainly. Mastered as such? Not on your life, not as standard anyway as NHK are the ones who are paying to have stuff like 2001:ASO and My Fair Lady output to 8K so they can show them on Japanese 8K TV. Even then, even with those classic 65mm large format shows, there's a very real limit to what those older film stocks can resolve and I'd wager that they don't get close to any kind of objectively measured 8K resolution (just as some 35mm shows don't get anywhere near 4K).

The people who will be making contemporary 8K content that really has the 'wow' factor will be the streamers....who don't usually release much of anything on disc, for what I hope are obvious reasons. So with new 8K content behind a streaming paywall and old 8K content not up to snuff I can't see any reason whatsoever why the BDA et al would even think about producing an 8K Blu-ray format.

[Wummyhulk]

What's this talk about 8K TVs and Europe? Are 8K TVs only going to be sold in Europe or are they sold all over the world, United States included?