Archived: Insiders Thread

[WickyWoo]

So, this might also explain why I've seen (Mom's) Olevia LCD displaying a changing pattern of white dashs in the top scan line? It is HD, but does appear to be some sort of broadcast network code?

That's the closed captioning on an analog broadcast. You're underscanning for sure. Take it back, or get it out of 1:1 mode

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

First of all, thanks to all the insiders who post here, this is quite possibly the best and most informative thread on any site anywhere!!

Paidgeek, is there any possibility that Sony would even consider making SD-DVD playback on the PS3 region free??
I bought a Hong Kong PS3 to allow me to play Region A BDs, but then of course realised that the only SD-DVDs it will play are NTSC discs from Hong Hong (I think; it certainly doesn't play Region 1 or PAL Region 2).

So at the moment I have the PS3 for Blu-ray, a locally bought 360 that will play Region 2 SD-DVD and nothing else, and a stand alone DVD player that's region free.
If the PS3 was region free (or even Region 1!!) it would allow me to get rid of the DVD player, making one less box on the shelf and sating Mrs Horseflesh somewhat (especially if she lets me get the new TV)
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=19805


My other option is to buy a US PS3 and sell the Hong Kong one, but that would be a bit of a pain in the arse and I'm not hugely keen on buying hardware online/overseas (I bought my PS3 from an English guy who delivered it direct to a friend of mine in the UK)

I would second this request. Just about all DVD players here (Singapore) are region free and this is not just local, no name brands, but the large CE companies as well. But the PS3 is region 3 even though most shops sell region 1 and region 3 DVDs here. At many people I know prefer to buy the region 1 DVD so they keep a different player to play those on

[Hussla]

If I recall correctly here in Australia the ACCC ruled that region coding may in fact violate the trade practices act.

So its a wonder that the PS3 DVD playback here isnt region free...

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/87605

http://www.consensus.com.au/ITWriter...itzsimmons.htm

[WickyWoo]

It's not up to Sony. The entire DVD Forum would have to vote to allow disabling of region coding

They DID make an offer supposedly to get rid of it in exchange for including tech that would detect audio and video watermarks to stop cam/telecine bootleg DVDs, but the margins on DVD players are too thin for a major re-engineering now and the CEs refused.

I'd say it's not going to happen, period unfortunately.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering…….
Not sure what you mean. I am sure he's looked at it though.

Kris, perhaps you missed this….. or didn’t fully understand what I was referring to in my last reply to you on this issue. In the meantime, I’ve found a few more pertinent posts from Dave Vaughn (on AVS) and Robert George (on HTF) for context regarding the title Blood Diamond. To refresh your memory, this is our recent exchange from this forum…………

Originally Posted by Kris Deering…………….
Interesting, I talked with someone that has done QA on this title (RTHOHH) and he said the HD DVD does indeed have seamless branching.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man………..
Well geez Kris, my stomach thanks you for that information.
B.T.W. – is this the same guy that is intimately familiar with the video master of Blood Diamond ?

Originally Posted by Kris Deering…….
Not sure what you mean. I am sure he's looked at it though.

So Kris, like I said above, in the meantime, I’ve found the following posts on AVS and HTF regarding Blood Diamond to provide some context for you…………….

Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn………..
I made a big stink about Blood Diamond as well and I heard directly from the compressionist who told me that the errors I was seeing was on the master as well and had nothing to do with the encoding, even though the bitrate was low in those scenes.

Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn……..
He (the compressionist) said that they could have done a better job in hindsight, but the elements were not in the greatest shape.

Originally Posted by Robert George……..
There was this big brouhaha on AVS about the time the Blu-ray (Blood Diamond) was released. There are a few rough patches in the transfer directly related to the nature and condition of the film element.

While I agree that there are a FEW spots in the encode of Blood Diamond could have likely been improved a bit (and have been told as much), overall, I feel the HD transfer and encode is a relatively accurate representation of the film element based on what I know of it.

---------------------------------------------------------

So, Kris if this source that you refer to in your post above is indeed the same source that Dave Vaughn and Robert George are getting their information from, I suggest you inform your contact that his judgment is flawed concerning his critique of the “film element” of Blood Diamond, of which I am a tad familiar with.

Familiar enough in fact to say that Peter Bracke (in this particular case) was correct when he stated in his review that……..” And the print itself is in great shape -- in fact, it's just about pristine.”

Familiar enough to know that if you examine the scene where Connelly and DiCaprio seem like they’re about to kiss (but don’t actually kiss) the same exact footage is repeated or almost *looped* during the scene (because there wasn’t enough original footage to work with) to add to the “dramatic effect” of the moment.

Familiar enough to know that when they’re talking during the evening at the outdoor bar, that the only “rough patch” I can find with the “film elements” is a slight oversight with the *focus* of the scene……. and that isn’t even the fault of Eduardo Serra’s masterful use of those Hawk lenses but, an oversight by the visual special effects people. Specifically I’m referring to the fact that Connelly and DiCaprio are in perfect focus, the extras in the background are out of focus and the ocean and horizon are back in focus.

Familiar enough to know that with the scene where Danny is explaining how conflict diamonds are smuggled in, the people at EFILM who did the 2K DI added the color yellow to embellish the dramatic effect of the moment.

Etc. (After the first test screening done in Chicago, about eleven minutes of the film were cut).
So, given my familiarity with the “film elements” it is baloney to say “ the elements were not in the greatest shape” and that was the cause of the *noisey* scenes on the Blu-ray discs………….which juuuuuuuust so happen to correlate with low bitrates at those precise locations.

Dave Vaughn should have trusted his original gut instinct with his original review of Blood Diamond (which I agree with, by the way) and ignored the excuses later provided by his contact…..”the compressionist”…….whom he states he heard directly from.

In summary, I believe that theLion was correct on AVS when he attributed some poorly appearing scenes in Blood Diamond to the low bitrate used at that exact point in the action by the compressionist involved and I submit that whenever astute observers see legitimate problems with the PQ of a Blu-ray disc or HD DVD disc and the bitrate is low in those areas that it may not unequivocally be due to the low bitrate but, it should certainly raise a BIG red flag and be vigorously questioned (especially when the scenario involves a 30G disc that is loaded with *extras*)……..and also in view of the fact that Amir, by his own words has stated in the past that revealing the exact data rate (mbit/sec) of a particular title is “against MS’s typical policy.”

I mean, what’s there to hide in revealing bitrates on a finished product which people bought and own in their homes ?
We now have an independent producer from an independent studio (that used Technicolor to do the actual work on a recently released VC-1 title) state that you start “reaching the point of diminishing returns around 24mbps to 26mbps” with regards to VC-1.
And what was the bitrate on problem scenes in Blood Diamond……….something like 7.9 mbps?
Which I guess aint nothing when folks (like krinkle) are seeing problem scenes on some titles where the encoding by the compressionist is hitting a low water mark of 3.3 mbps………………….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=18025

P.S.
And if this “source” at WB in retrospect, now desires to change his story (to blame another part of the production chain) and now claim that the “film element” was not the culprit, but the D.I.> video master process was the problem for the appearance of quantization noise seen on Blood Diamond for both the Blu-ray and HD DVD discs, I do not believe the source was improperly laid off to the video master by the people that did that work.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In summary, I believe that theLion was correct on AVS when he attributed some poorly appearing scenes in Blood Diamond to the low bitrate used at that exact point in the action by the compressionist involved and I submit that whenever astute observers see legitimate problems with the PQ of a Blu-ray disc or HD DVD disc and the bitrate is low in those areas that it may not unequivocally be due to the low bitrate but, it should certainly raise a BIG red flag and be vigorously questioned (especially when the scenario involves a 30G disc that is loaded with *extras*)……..and also in view of the fact that Amir, by his own words has stated in the past that revealing the exact data rate (mbit/sec) of a particular title is “against MS’s typical policy.”

I mean, what’s there to hide in revealing bitrates on a finished product which people bought and own in their homes ?
We now have an independent producer from an independent studio (that used Technicolor to do the actual work on a recently released VC-1 title) state that you start “reaching the point of diminishing returns around 24mbps to 26mbps” with regards to VC-1.
And what was the bitrate on problem scenes in Blood Diamond……….something like 7.9 mbps?
Which I guess aint nothing when folks (like krinkle) are seeing problem scenes on some titles where the encoding by the compressionist is hitting a low water mark of 3.3 mbps………………….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=18025

P.S.
And if this “source” at WB in retrospect, now desires to change his story (to blame another part of the production chain) and now claim that the “film element” was not the culprit, but the D.I.> video master process was the problem for the appearance of quantization noise seen on Blood Diamond for both the Blu-ray and HD DVD discs, I do not believe the source was improperly laid off to the video master by the people that did that work.

[Neo65]

I had a similar question on P.E. near the beginning with the pan-outs of the birds in flight, for several points, bitrates stayed uncomfortably close to the 28+ range, and I noticed ringing [halos around some of the birds]. Ringing, to those who are curious about these things is a very common post-DCT artifact if you quantize very complex (high-entropy) macroblocks.

Curiously enough, Dave V., mentioned that the compressionist also said the ringing was in the original master. Since I don't have the original master, I have no idea how to continue this query, but it seems bizarre that the rest of the video was pristine.

I don't really know either way what causes this, but the high bitrates at that segment just seemed a curious coincidence. (If I was younger and had more free time, I'd take that short segment and analyze it in detail, but I'm just too swamped with real work now.)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by patrick99

I think I owed you that post because weren’t you the guy who asked me awhile back if I could elaborate some more on Blood Diamond….. after I just became disenchanted with speaking anymore about it because some mod on AVS deleted a post I made over there concerning the technical aspects of that film (i.e. some scenes with pull-focus).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Neo65

I had a similar question on P.E.

Neo,
I’m not familiar with all aspects of the production chain of that film but, I can just guess the excuse given on that one…………*It was the camera*.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Kris, perhaps you missed this….. or didn’t fully understand what I was referring to in my last reply to you on this issue. In the meantime, I’ve found a few more pertinent posts from Dave Vaughn (on AVS) and Robert George (on HTF) for context regarding the title Blood Diamond. To refresh your memory, this is our recent exchange from this forum…………





So Kris, like I said above, in the meantime, I’ve found the following posts on AVS and HTF regarding Blood Diamond to provide some context for you…………….




---------------------------------------------------------

So, Kris if this source that you refer to in your post above is indeed the same source that Dave Vaughn and Robert George are getting their information from, I suggest you inform your contact that his judgment is flawed concerning his critique of the “film element” of Blood Diamond, of which I am a tad familiar with.

Familiar enough in fact to say that Peter Bracke (in this particular case) was correct when he stated in his review that……..” And the print itself is in great shape -- in fact, it's just about pristine.”

Familiar enough to know that if you examine the scene where Connelly and DiCaprio seem like they’re about to kiss (but don’t actually kiss) the same exact footage is repeated or almost *looped* during the scene (because there wasn’t enough original footage to work with) to add to the “dramatic effect” of the moment.

Familiar enough to know that when they’re talking during the evening at the outdoor bar, that the only “rough patch” I can find with the “film elements” is a slight oversight with the *focus* of the scene……. and that isn’t even the fault of Eduardo Serra’s masterful use of those Hawk lenses but, an oversight by the visual special effects people. Specifically I’m referring to the fact that Connelly and DiCaprio are in perfect focus, the extras in the background are out of focus and the ocean and horizon are back in focus.

Familiar enough to know that with the scene where Danny is explaining how conflict diamonds are smuggled in, the people at EFILM who did the 2K DI added the color yellow to embellish the dramatic effect of the moment.

Etc. (After the first test screening done in Chicago, about eleven minutes of the film were cut).
So, given my familiarity with the “film elements” it is baloney to say “ the elements were not in the greatest shape” and that was the cause of the *noisey* scenes on the Blu-ray discs………….which juuuuuuuust so happen to correlate with low bitrates at those precise locations.

Dave Vaughn should have trusted his original gut instinct with his original review of Blood Diamond (which I agree with, by the way) and ignored the excuses later provided by his contact…..”the compressionist”…….whom he states he heard directly from.

In summary, I believe that theLion was correct on AVS when he attributed some poorly appearing scenes in Blood Diamond to the low bitrate used at that exact point in the action by the compressionist involved and I submit that whenever astute observers see legitimate problems with the PQ of a Blu-ray disc or HD DVD disc and the bitrate is low in those areas that it may not unequivocally be due to the low bitrate but, it should certainly raise a BIG red flag and be vigorously questioned (especially when the scenario involves a 30G disc that is loaded with *extras*)……..and also in view of the fact that Amir, by his own words has stated in the past that revealing the exact data rate (mbit/sec) of a particular title is “against MS’s typical policy.”

I mean, what’s there to hide in revealing bitrates on a finished product which people bought and own in their homes ?
We now have an independent producer from an independent studio (that used Technicolor to do the actual work on a recently released VC-1 title) state that you start “reaching the point of diminishing returns around 24mbps to 26mbps” with regards to VC-1.
And what was the bitrate on problem scenes in Blood Diamond……….something like 7.9 mbps?
Which I guess aint nothing when folks (like krinkle) are seeing problem scenes on some titles where the encoding by the compressionist is hitting a low water mark of 3.3 mbps………………….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=18025

P.S.
And if this “source” at WB in retrospect, now desires to change his story (to blame another part of the production chain) and now claim that the “film element” was not the culprit, but the D.I.> video master process was the problem for the appearance of quantization noise seen on Blood Diamond for both the Blu-ray and HD DVD discs, I do not believe the source was improperly laid off to the video master by the people that did that work.

Now I see what you are talking about.

So to answer, NO, I am not talking about the same person they are referring to. I talk with the person that does the QA work on the encode, not the compressionist. Also realize that HD DVD and Blu-ray aren't sourced from the film print, they are sourced from the D5 master, which was the issue in this case. That is probably what they meant when they say they could have done better, they could have done a new master. At least that is what I would assume.

As for the independent studio guy and his claims about VC1 encode rates, he was using an older encoder that does not represent what the studios are presently using. He is also using material that isn't in the best condition based on what I say, unless you can explain the print noise, banding and posterization in the image on his latest reference release. Again, issues with the master since both the HD DVD and Blu-ray versions suffer the same fate, despite seperate encodes.

Based on all the conversations I've had with encoders and such, and from looking at some D5 comparisons to encodes, the masters seem to be the biggest limitation for picture quality, not the encodes. I think bitrate plays far more into the ability to have a lossless or uncompressed soundtrack attached, but picture quality isn't suffering much. Of course there will always be titles that are the exception, but so far I think they are rare.

Because of HD DVD's bitrate cap I think it is probably a lot harder to get everything you want on a disc though. I am sure it would be a lot easier to encode difficult material within the constraints of the Blu-ray format and include lossless soundtracks and special features. A perfect example would be a film like Saving Private Ryan. I know my friend Darin has used this example as well. I would love to see both camps do seperate encodes of this film with a minimum of a lossless 48/24 soundtrack (either DTHD or DTSHDMA) and PiP commentary. Granted by that requirement neither could probably achieve it. HD DVD could but they would probably sacrifice a lot of video quality because of the difficult material and Blu-ray couldn't because they can't do PiP (without doing another encode which would degrade picture quality), or at least not until profile 1.1.

Anyway, I've gone a bit off topic I guess. Sorry.

[Kris Deering]

Penton,

By the way, I hope your little hint on the Sunshine release is true over at AVS under your other guise. Would love to see that one in HD soon.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think I owed you that post because weren’t you the guy who asked me awhile back if I could elaborate some more on Blood Diamond….. after I just became disenchanted with speaking anymore about it because some mod on AVS deleted a post I made over there concerning the technical aspects of that film (i.e. some scenes with pull-focus).

I think you're recollection is correct on that, Penton-Man.

Your post on the correlation between bitrate and PQ really made my day.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

That's UNDERSCAN. You're not supposed to see those white dashes of code dancing on your HDTV.

If you have a Sony BD, run the 7669 code (SONY on the numeric keypad of the remote), and there are a couple of screens that will run. One screen will let you know if you have overscan or not.

paidgeek, if PHL has their disc compatibility checking facility, does Sony DADC have the same setup? Or do you do your checking in-house prior to mastering ie BD-R/RE?


fuad

Sony DADC and SPE have most of the available players for testing and we do extensive compatibility testing in-house.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

First of all, thanks to all the insiders who post here, this is quite possibly the best and most informative thread on any site anywhere!!

Paidgeek, is there any possibility that Sony would even consider making SD-DVD playback on the PS3 region free??
I bought a Hong Kong PS3 to allow me to play Region A BDs, but then of course realised that the only SD-DVDs it will play are NTSC discs from Hong Hong (I think; it certainly doesn't play Region 1 or PAL Region 2).

So at the moment I have the PS3 for Blu-ray, a locally bought 360 that will play Region 2 SD-DVD and nothing else, and a stand alone DVD player that's region free.
If the PS3 was region free (or even Region 1!!) it would allow me to get rid of the DVD player, making one less box on the shelf and sating Mrs Horseflesh somewhat (especially if she lets me get the new TV)
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=19805


My other option is to buy a US PS3 and sell the Hong Kong one, but that would be a bit of a pain in the arse and I'm not hugely keen on buying hardware online/overseas (I bought my PS3 from an English guy who delivered it direct to a friend of mine in the UK)

It is not presently possible to make a region-free DVD player without violating the DVD license. I know that DVD players and market forces have created a huge market for region free DVD players, but I don't know how this request can be accommodated by Sony at this time.

[degas]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

It is not presently possible to make a region-free DVD player without violating the DVD license. I know that DVD players and market forces have created a huge market for region free DVD players, but I don't know how this request can be accommodated by Sony at this time.

Could you at least pass on the request of Region A player (NTSC) supporting PAL (for our region free PAL-discs)?
Like the HK-version. That would be great!

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by degas

Could you at least pass on the request of Region A player (NTSC) supporting PAL (for our region free PAL-discs)?
Like the HK-version. That would be great!

I will pass the request along...

[Rob Tomlin]

Paidgeek:

This is more a comment of appreciation and thanks than a question (but I will throw one in at the end anyway): I watched The Lives of Others last night, and I just wanted to let you and Sony know how much I appreciate the work that was done on this great (Academy Award Winning) title! The PQ was quite good, and the lossless German track was included. Thank you!

Anyone reading this: I highly recommend this movie!

My obligatory question: has Sony considered doing something different with the subtitles on foreign films like this? I.e., this was a 2.35 movie, so it seems it would be possible to have some of the subtitle going onto the "black bar" at the bottom of the screen. I know that owners of constant height screens would object, but those of us who have 16:9 screens/TV's would probably like to see this done as less of the picture would be covered with the subtitles.

Thanks!

[whippersnapper]

Paidgeek, our thanks and compliments go out to Sony and the other BDA members for these fantastic sales currently taking place. I'm assuming that you know they are wildly successful. Thanks again.

[Jason One]

paidgeek:

Can you pass along another request to the PS3 engineers? Mine concerns DVD upscaling.

As far as I know, there isn't a single upscaling DVD player in existence that properly handles non-anamorphic DVDs. Ideally, the player should stretch the non-anamorphic image vertically so that the widescreen image fills a native 16:9 HD screen with the correct proportions.

Since the PS3's upscaling is software-based, I would think it would be possible to add this functionality. I still have quite a few non-anamorphic DVDs, and if the PS3 did this it would be the best way to watch them by far. Thanks.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Paidgeek:

This is more a comment of appreciation and thanks than a question (but I will throw one in at the end anyway): I watched The Lives of Others last night, and I just wanted to let you and Sony know how much I appreciate the work that was done on this great (Academy Award Winning) title! The PQ was quite good, and the lossless German track was included. Thank you!

Anyone reading this: I highly recommend this movie!

My obligatory question: has Sony considered doing something different with the subtitles on foreign films like this? I.e., this was a 2.35 movie, so it seems it would be possible to have some of the subtitle going onto the "black bar" at the bottom of the screen. I know that owners of constant height screens would object, but those of us who have 16:9 screens/TV's would probably like to see this done as less of the picture would be covered with the subtitles.

Thanks!

I agree that this is a good movie. Not a big budget, just a good story...

This would have been a good candidate for dual position subtitles, but I don't think we have had much feedback since we introduced that feature on "Immortal Beloved". I'll bring it up again...