Ask questions to The Digital Bits team (Bill Hunt, Jeff Kleist et.al.)

[ScuseMe]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Well, I was actually responding to more than one comment, but your point is well taken. I'm not interested in a semantic debate. I just think that a comparison of Mac and PC "value" based only upon spec. numbers is not a complete picture- there are other areas which create enormous value for a lot of customers that Apple is putting a lot more of their focus, research and investment into. This is what you're paying for with a Mac, but it doesn't come out in megahertz.

That extra "value" is the reason why my father-in-law's getting a Mac. He's tired of the incessant viruses, trojans, lockups, slow running when all he's trying to do is surf the web and do some email. I've spent hours installing/upgrading virus programs, reinstalling Vista, defragmenting his hard drive, getting rid of temp files, only to have his PC crap out a week later. He barely knows how to print a document, but has to use a computer in this day and age (Netflix for one). He wants his PC to just work. I don't think that's too much to ask.

I'll help him with whatever choice he makes. But for him, a Mac is the way to go.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It IS a monopoly. Nobody but Apple can sell OS-X compliant hardware.

So, I guess Sony has a monopoly on game consoles? Oh, and Microsoft also has a monopoly on game consoles. And Nintendo also has a monopoly on game consoles.

Monopolies were a lot more fun when there wasn't so much competition!

[Jeff Kleist]

Regardless of the royalty fee, the firewire technology is something I would be willing to pay for. You have to keep in mind that people are free to buy any computer they wish to. They aren't being forced to buy them at gunpoint.

Right, but the manufacturers weren't. So with zero support outside of the camcorder market, that went USB 2.0 a long time back, firewire died.

Exactly! This is the value I was describing. I'd take the Mac over FIVE "equivalent" PCs, but I only have to pay the price of THREE.

We're talking identical hardware here. So you're happy dropping a grand or more on an OS you can just hack?

Blu-ray players would still be $500 if it weren't for the format war

Definately not the case. Everything pretty much is on the expected track.

Windows 7 is just a tad too pricey. $300 for Windows 7 Professional? $200 for Windows 7 Home Premium?

Why would anyone pay that much for an OS? I think it's insane.

Apple charges you full price for incremental upgrades and it usually adds up to more than MS charges up front. And anyone who pays those prices is a fool who doesn't shop around

You can easily get them for half that

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116756

Apple OS X Leopard (10.6) is only a merely $29. $49 for 5 licenses (Family Pack) although you don't really need it since you can install one on as many as you want to. With Windows 7, it's not that easy. You have to do it in a way they would consider to be illegal.

MS sells a 3 pack of licenses for $30 over the single.

Right. How long did it take the PC market to adopt USB, regardless of royalty rate?

How long did it take Apple to bring in a second mouse button? Oh wait, still not standard

Well, I was actually responding to more than one comment, but your point is well taken. I'm not interested in a semantic debate. I just think that a comparison of Mac and PC "value" based only upon spec. numbers is not a complete picture- there are other areas which create enormous value for a lot of customers that Apple is putting a lot more of their focus, research and investment into. This is what you're paying for with a Mac, but it doesn't come out in megahertz.

That's just the Church of Jobs talking.You can't win on software, you can't win on price, you can't win on hardware, so you have to win on the intangible "user experience" that is somehow worth paying thousands more for the same machine on.

So why don't you build a Hackintosh and get the best of both worlds?

That extra "value" is the reason why my father-in-law's getting a Mac. He's tired of the incessant viruses, trojans, lockups, slow running when all he's trying to do is surf the web and do some email.

See the basic maintenance thing. Also, NoScript is better than any anti-virus out there because nothing runs that you don't specifically allow.

Apple is going to have a meltdown on their hands when the malware people finally start paying attention to them, because the vast majority of their users are incapable of handling any computer problems on their own.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by ScuseMe

That extra "value" is the reason why my father-in-law's getting a Mac. He's tired of the incessant viruses, trojans, lockups, slow running when all he's trying to do is surf the web and do some email. I've spent hours installing/upgrading virus programs, reinstalling Vista, defragmenting his hard drive, getting rid of temp files, only to have his PC crap out a week later. He barely knows how to print a document, but has to use a computer in this day and age (Netflix for one). He wants his PC to just work. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Strange how I was able to do that once (Norton 360 takes less than 10 min to install & configure) for my parents' Vista PC....

I also want to address the virus FUD: unless you're surfing porn/hack sites, mindlessly opening spam and attachments forwarded to you *and* you're not running a decent anti-virus app (hint: you get what you pay for) it's a non-issue.

Apple is going to have a meltdown on their hands when the malware people finally start paying attention to them, because the vast majority of their users are incapable of handling any computer problems on their own.

It's already been shown OS-X and applications like Safari have more holes in them (security) than a block of Swiss cheese.

[Jeff Kleist]

Can we shut the Apple fun down at 3PM EST(12PM pacific please)

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

So, I guess Sony has a monopoly on game consoles? Oh, and Microsoft also has a monopoly on game consoles. And Nintendo also has a monopoly on game consoles.

Monopolies were a lot more fun when there wasn't so much competition!

We're discussing Personal Computers, not game consoles. Apples, oranges 'ya know.

Who else can produce Mac (non-peripheral/monitors) hardware?

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

We're discussing Personal Computers, not game consoles. Apples, oranges 'ya know.

Who else can produce Mac (non-peripheral/monitors) hardware?

Yeah, MS is nice enough to allow windows to run on Macs.

Would Apple allow their OS to be run on a PC.

Hell no.

Of course I cant figure out why anyone would want to.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Apple is going to have a meltdown on their hands when the malware people finally start paying attention to them, because the vast majority of their users are incapable of handling any computer problems on their own.

Yeah, Apples number one defense against virus's and malware has been the fact that hackers have little interest in making them. If that changes things could get bad for them and I can't WAIT to hear the spin on that one.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Can we shut the Apple fun down at 3PM EST(12PM pacific please)

Yeah, thats when Quakecon begins. I really want to finally get some DOom 4 info.

[ScuseMe]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Strange how I was able to do that once (Norton 360 takes less than 10 min to install & configure) for my parents' Vista PC....

I also want to address the virus FUD: unless you're surfing porn/hack sites, mindlessly opening spam and attachments forwarded to you *and* you're not running a decent anti-virus app (hint: you get what you pay for) it's a non-issue.

Please. I hope your not suggesting that my father-in-law (who's 85) surfs for porn and hacks. He's just a normal, non-technical PC user. Like millions of others out there.

When he got his Vista PC (HP), the anti-virus program installed on it (Norton) crashed constantly. It took me several hours to figure out that it wasn't compatible with Vista. Why HP would ship this shit out is beyond me. But what's he supposed to do? Take the PC back to Best Buy? And get what, another Vista PC? I had to get him a license for McAfee, then install Webroot Spysweeper, since McAfee didn't (at that time) cover everything. Crazy for a new PC? You bet. The norm then? You bet.

I've maintained PC's in the corporate environment for over 25 years, and believe me, the only way to control viruses/hacks/blue-screens in a MS environment is through identical desktop image installations on identical PC's controlled by an aggressive inbound/outbound firewall. When you give people the opportunity to install software for themselves or surf wherever they want to go, then it's virus/blue-screen time again.

OSX, based partly on Unix, is much more robust as to what it allows rogue programs to do (I've also maintained Solaris installations). That in itself mitigates many of the disasters that plague non-tech computer users. I'm sure your Win7 PC (or Vista, or XP or whatever) runs great, but you've spent many hours getting it that way. The normal person has no idea even how to maintain a PC, nor should they be required to. To say that they should is just being unrealistic. The PC is an "appliance" these days, and it should be treated as one. The Mac is the best "appliance" PC that I know.

[MerrickG]

Well the apple debat has ended and I am going to mention one thing that is the best news of the day (Unless I see Doom 4)

Bioshock: Infinities has been announced and its being made by the same team that made the first Bioshock. A lot of people liked the 2nd one, but I found it to be a disappointment since Rapture for the second game seemed VERY bland and until the end of the game there wasn't really a part that stuck out. The parts that did stick out in the 2nd game weren't even close to being as good as the parts that stuck out in the first.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by ScuseMe

I'm sure your Win7 PC (or Vista, or XP or whatever) runs great, but you've spent many hours getting it that way.

Umm, my Windows 7 installation does run great (I have two SSDs in RAID 0!)and after a few driver installations and that took 10 minutes at most. I can run any game and program with maximum performance possible and it did not take "many hours getting it that way."

No issues. No time.

[Banjo]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Right, but the manufacturers weren't. So with zero support outside of the camcorder market, that went USB 2.0 a long time back, firewire died.

There were plenty of external hard drives with firewire support. Firewire is much more ideal for storage purposes. Even to this day.

Apple charges you full price for incremental upgrades and it usually adds up to more than MS charges up front. And anyone who pays those prices is a fool who doesn't shop around

You can easily get them for half that

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116756

That's the OEM version. The average Joe isn't supposed to buy it unless they intend to build a computer.

$29 is the full price for OS X 10.6.

That's more than a decent price for an OS if you ask me.

$120 is the regular price for the average Joe to upgrade Windows 7 Home Premium. I recall OS X 10.5 being $129, but could be found for less at Amazon and other stores. I bought it for $80 when it came out. However, OS X 10.6 is out now and it costs only $29. So I wouldn't even bother with the student discount.

The bottom line is, Apple is able to provide an OS at a reasonable price and it's only one edition. No need to worry about anything.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by ScuseMe

Please. I hope your not suggesting that my father-in-law (who's 85) surfs for porn and hacks. He's just a normal, non-technical PC user. Like millions of others out there.

Where did these viruses come from? I also didn't say he was surfing porn, I gave a few other ways to get them.

When he got his Vista PC (HP), the anti-virus program installed on it (Norton) crashed constantly. It took me several hours to figure out that it wasn't compatible with Vista. Why HP would ship this shit out is beyond me. But what's he supposed to do? Take the PC back to Best Buy? And get what, another Vista PC? I had to get him a license for McAfee, then install Webroot Spysweeper, since McAfee didn't (at that time) cover everything. Crazy for a new PC? You bet. The norm then? You bet.

Well, Norton is subscription based, so all you needed to do was update to the latest version free of charge. It has been that way for several years now. You could go out, buy Norton 2009 (or 2007 or whatnot back then) , and go to their website and download 2010 and the installer will automatically upgrade. All you need is a valid & current subscription. Even if you don't, it will run in a fully functional 15-day trial mode until you purchase a key.

I've maintained PC's in the corporate environment for over 25 years, and believe me, the only way to control viruses/hacks/blue-screens in a MS environment is through identical desktop image installations on identical PC's controlled by an aggressive inbound/outbound firewall. When you give people the opportunity to install software for themselves or surf wherever they want to go, then it's virus/blue-screen time again.

Well, that's just a normal network environment. Did you try to maintain an Apple-based environment? Probably not because their applications they require are unsupported.

OSX, based partly on Unix, is much more robust as to what it allows rogue programs to do (I've also maintained Solaris installations). That in itself mitigates many of the disasters that plague non-tech computer users. I'm sure your Win7 PC (or Vista, or XP or whatever) runs great, but you've spent many hours getting it that way.

Well, not hours, not for Windows anyway. Proper drivers are key: and that's the makers' responsibility. MS has kept Vista/Win7 pretty stable even when the hardware takes a dump.

[Nick Graham]

Having been in the IT biz for 11 years now, at this point with a little knowledge and common sense, two free of charge programs (AVG and Malwarebytes Anti-Malware), and a PC, you can enjoy a hassle and virus free existence. It's the knowledge and common sense part that spells the doom of many PC users.

I'm not an Apple hater either - I own an iPhone and love it, plan to get an iPad (mainly for reading my comics collection without having to carry a stack of comics around), and am in the process of trying (and about 3/4 succeeding, driver issues keep hanging me up) to make my PC a Windows 7/Snow Leopard dual boot. That said, the defense of Apple based on Windows being so hard to keep virus/malware free is incredibly faulty. With a stable OS like Windows 7 and free utilities to take care of everything else, there is little reason for a novice to spend the incredibly greedy profit margin on a Mac.

Peter, what did your parents do to you during childhood that made you feel they deserved Vista?

[Jeff Kleist]

Having been in the IT biz for 11 years now, at this point with a little knowledge and common sense, two free of charge programs (AVG and Malwarebytes Anti-Malware), and a PC, you can enjoy a hassle and virus free existence. It's the knowledge and common sense part that spells the doom of many PC users.

Bingo.

I have to suggest FireFox and the NoScript plugin, the latter is the best anti-virus out there because it doesn't allow anything to run you don't specifically enable. I've been using it for 3 years and haven't even had the anti-virus burp at me since. They can't malware your computer if their code won't run

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Overpriced and pretty do not a great product make.

It has worked well for Megan Fox.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by wallendo

It has worked well for Megan Fox.

As you can see...to a point.


Jennifer's Body
Jonah Hex
booted off Transformers 3...

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by merrick97

I'm glad that you feel these packs are worth it. As long as people like you are willing to pay these absurd prices for something so trivial as 5 stinking maps ($15 ought to get you 10 maps and some single player content) then that market will continue to be exploited more and more. All that is going to continue to happen from hear on out is that more and more pieces of the game are going to intentionally left out so more and more of it can be sold as DLC. How long will it be before you have to pay to finish the game? The ending will be sold as DLC. As long as gamers show that they can be so easily exploited this is where that path will lead.

I hope you enjoy spending another $90 (maybe more) on Black Ops and its content. Im sure those $15 mappacks will provide hours of entertainment. I'm willing to bet they already have the maps picked out they are going to charge you for.

I hope you enjoy paying for that Call of Duty online subscription fee coming up before too much longer.

I honestly hope that happens because it might be just the thing to make the CoD crowd revolt and might create just the crazy backlash that Activision needs to realize that they are going too far.


But hey, "its worth it" and "I don't have to buy it."

Yeah, you're right I don't and I won't.

BUT 10-15M of you WILL.

Its funny because there is a part of me that admires Activision for being able to rake in a lot of profit in a tough economy. Nevertheless, if they keep this up it will backfire on them dramatically.

No further comments.

You suffer from some false premises. There's no such thing as an "absurd price". It's nothing more than a subjective term. What's an absurd price to you may not be to others. It's all relative. Also, it's logically impossible for me to be "exploited" when I'm the one who wants the product and is willing to pay $15 for it. I've decided those map-packs are worth $15 of value to me, the same way you do w/ every purchase you make(whether it be a car or a stick of gum). As for the prices, no one enjoys the fees my friend. They may, however, ENJOY the map-packs ENOUGH to decide they're worth the cost. As I stated earlier, there are market forces that control the "going rate" for things. They can charge more to a point, and then at another certain point people will just stop buying. That's why they're NOT charging you $500.00 for a map-pack now. To each his own as they say...

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Constitution 101

You suffer from some false premises. There's no such thing as an "absurd price". It's nothing more than a subjective term. What's an absurd price to you may not be to others. It's all relative. Also, it's logically impossible for me to be "exploited" when I'm the one who wants the product and is willing to pay $15 for it. I've decided those map-packs are worth $15 of value to me, the same way you do w/ every purchase you make(whether it be a car or a stick of gum). As for the prices, no one enjoys the fees my friend. They may, however, ENJOY the map-packs ENOUGH to decide they're worth the cost. As I stated earlier, there are market forces that control the "going rate" for things. They can charge more to a point, and then at another certain point people will just stop buying. That's why they're NOT charging you $500.00 for a map-pack now. To each his own as they say...

Enjoy them, but dont be surprised if the price goes higher. Would you be willing to pay $100 to get the full Black Ops experience.

Like I said I really hope that Battlefield and Medal of Honor end up taking a huge chunk of Call of Duty's users.

Believe it or not Activision has shown a history of being competitive. While Bobby Kotick is an ass and rather ruthless, he is not a fool.