Ask questions to The Digital Bits team (Bill Hunt, Jeff Kleist et.al.)

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

However, I do believe, one day, Lucas will release the originals on BD as Star Wars is and always will be a revenue stream. They are already now calling them the "classic" versions so I can just imagine the marketing in several years when these get announced.

"Due to popular demand, the original, classic versions fully restored in the higest quality possible for Blu-ray have arrived for a limited time only at $99.95 MSRP."

Thats where I disagree. 95% of the people who buy Star Wars arent going to care that they are only getting the SEs and they will pass on the originals. Star Wars probably has more casual fans than any other franchise and the casuals dont care about the originals and those are the ones that Lucas makes his money on. In otherwords for releasing the originals to be a worthwhile investment he would have to find a way to convince the casuals to buy it and that is a tougher sell than the hardcore Star Wars fans realize.

Something else some may not consider is I that I have several friends who hadn't watched the originals in YEARS and decided to play them only to discover that they no longer liked them since they felt that they were incomplete.

I don't think its fair, but when looking at it from an economic standpoint I am not surprised that Lucas probably has no desire to re-release the originals.


For the record, I did feel that the 2006 versions were a HUGE slap in the face.

[Jeff Kleist]

Then why did they actually release the original versions in 2006? And even transferred the original 1977 opening for the very first time on home video from original elements?

Because there are people inside Lucasfilm trying to change his mind. They did get permission to run prints, fi they could find them of the originals in good enough shape. They ended up going with the LD box because those were the best masters available. I know personally of several collectors who were contacted about access to their copies for that effort.

Getting that concession took YEARS, and then they didn't prove to be a selling point in any large numbers

Sorry, but the 2006 release contradicts both the "100 fans" and "George doesn't ever want to see them again" theory.

I said there are only several hundred who will outright refuse to purchase SW unless it's the original version, not that there are only a few hundred people who want them.I have rechecked the attitudes from several contacts in the last 12 months, and nothing has changed. You would probably do better writing to our first geek President and asking him to issue an executive order that they be preserved than bugging Lucas about it Because that's pretty much what it would take at this point

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Getting that concession took YEARS, and then they didn't prove to be a selling point in any large numbers

I don't know if the sales numbers for that release are a reasonable metric for the demand for these. The people who want these don't want ancient 4:3 LD transfers- they didn't get what they want. I like beer, but if all you offer me is Coors Light, you shouldn't be surprised to see it remain on the shelf.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I don't know if the sales numbers for that release are a reasonable metric for the demand for these. The people who want these don't want ancient 4:3 LD transfers- they didn't get what they want. I like beer, but if all you offer me is Coors Light, you shouldn't be surprised to see it remain on the shelf.

Yeah, I do feel that the 2006 releases were a slap in the face in that they would have been better off not doing them.


Negra Modelo for me!

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by merrick97

Thats where I disagree. 95% of the people who buy Star Wars arent going to care that they are only getting the SEs and they will pass on the originals. Star Wars probably has more casual fans than any other franchise and the casuals dont care about the originals and those are the ones that Lucas makes his money on. In otherwords for releasing the originals to be a worthwhile investment he would have to find a way to convince the casuals to buy it and that is a tougher sell than the hardcore Star Wars fans realize.

Something else some may not consider is I that I have several friends who hadn't watched the originals in YEARS and decided to play them only to discover that they no longer liked them since they felt that they were incomplete.

I don't think its fair, but when looking at it from an economic standpoint I am not surprised that Lucas probably has no desire to re-release the originals.


For the record, I did feel that the 2006 versions were a HUGE slap in the face.

Well, they will sell big no matter what he releases. If Lucas released these in heavy DNR'd 720p, they would still sell huge. It's Star Wars. It doesn't matter. It will sell.

However, there is a strong core of Star Wars fans who would buy the originals. There were a large number of signatures for the petition over at originaltrilogy.com. My friends say the opposite of yours and prefer the originals. However, I bet MANY casual fans would buy the originals several years after next year's boxset as Star Wars has strong double-dipping power. Look at how many far less popular movies have been double or triple dipped on DVD and Blu-ray that get released over time. In addition, I bet many harder core Star Wars fans are more likely to own a BD player. To say there is no economic incentive is mistaken as double dips happens on almost everything anyways. And as crappy as the originals were on DVD, he still released them for economic reasons (what else realistically?). Again, Star Wars is and always will be a constant revenue stream for Lucas.

[Jeff Kleist]

Seriously, holding them back has NOTHING to do with double dipping or potential profits they may generate. Holding back the deleted scenes? Totally to do with double dipping.

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by kpkelley

Jeff,

With the announcement of the October releases of Romeo + Juliet and Moulin Rouge from Fox, is there any word from Sony(I believe they have the rights) on the third member of The Red Curtain Trilogy, Strictly Ballroom?

Also, any update on the Hamlet inquiry?

TIA

Strictly Ballroom is going to be late to the party no matter what. It probably needs more work to be blu-ray ready than either of the others, and will likely sell far less than either of the others. Also it's tied to Miramax, which sort of automatically makes it up in the air until the aquisition dust settles.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Well, they will sell big no matter what he releases. If Lucas released these in heavy DNR'd 720p, they would still sell huge. It's Star Wars. It doesn't matter. It will sell.

However, there is a strong core of Star Wars fans who would buy the originals. There were a large number of signatures for the petition over at originaltrilogy.com. My friends say the opposite of yours and prefer the originals. However, I bet MANY casual fans would buy the originals several years after next year's boxset as Star Wars has strong double-dipping power. Look at how many far less popular movies have been double or triple dipped on DVD and Blu-ray that get released over time. In addition, I bet many harder core Star Wars fans are more likely to own a BD player. To say there is no economic incentive is mistaken as double dips happens on almost everything anyways. And as crappy as the originals were on DVD, he still released them for economic reasons (what else realistically?). Again, Star Wars is and always will be a constant revenue stream for Lucas.

Signing a petition online means nothing and nobody takes them seriously anymore anyway. Signing an online petition takes no effort.

The originals on dvd sold piss poor from what I understand that served as Lucas belief that no one was really interested in the originals.

Plus, I have no doubt that there are a lot of people that would buy them, but I have doubts that they would be this humungous seller the vocal die hards seem to think they would be.

[Nick Graham]

Really the only way one could even make a dent toward getting the originals out would be along the lines of something big and tangible, similar to the full-page ad that was put into the trades encouraging Lucas to release the movies on DVD period.

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

The phrase "up to a certain point" and the right way to downconvert are among the key factors in this equasion. An 8K scan does not do you any good if the material you want to process barely scratches the 3.5K level at its peak. It merely makes for good advertisement. But scanning a Normal or S35 at 4K for preservation and depending on the priority (such as Digital Cinema) even distibution does make a lot of sense. As was correctly mentioned before here, another key element in that chain is the right way of downconverting. If done wrong it potentially can lead to significant loss in detail by adding artifacts.

As for 4K or 2K being the essential "must" for Blu-ray mastering, its is not that clear cut. Bill, I noticed in your article reflecting on that Universal meeting (an interesting read) the comments made by the reps re: 1080p mastering - i.e. the claim that a native High Definition telecine transfer is ALWAYS a problem for Blu-ray consumption, suggesting 2K at least has to be there as a basis. Put that generally, I would have to say: No, not really. It very much depends on what you transfer, how, on what and how you viewed it while working on it. A wonderfully developed negative or excellent IP in very experienced hands on a SPIRIT DATACINE with a 100" projected screen or greater (either perfectly measured True HD or 2K DCI, even better) together with larger, wel calibrated monitors could result in an excellent rendition for a Blu-ray disc, I am sure.

Can 2K or 4K expand on that ? Yes, but only if done exactly as good in terms of quality craft during the mastering stages as its HD SPIRIT counterpart. And don't forget the cost factor, especially at the 4K level and above. Would it make a huge difference ? That depends very much on the material, the way it was "treated" and how it was downconverted, its original AR (flat 1.85:1 would have little gain in 2K vs HD, while 1.37 and even 1.66 can benefit greatly; an anamorphic element scanned in 2K is perfect for oversampling) being a great factor as well. Worked on in an environment where the monitor is not reference and properly calibrated and/or too small the whole scanning at greater resolution can end up potentially worth zipp. That was also the key problem with the most of Universal's (and other's) native HD masters. Not the native 1080p telecine transfers per se at all - but much rather the choice of elements and most of all monitoring while mastering. The monitors were mostly to small, often even poorly aligned. At that point it becomes a guessing game. When viewed on big screens, it is no surprise that often everything falls apart. I remember being ridiculed for the fact that we used 2K projection screens (130" minimum then [2003], now 240") during our work in mastering and restoration. "What do you need this for" a rep from a big studio asked. Three years after, 3 projection suites were created on the lot he worked.

There you go. Well said, Torsten.

[Bill Hunt]

In unreleated news, I just confirmed with Warner Home Video this afternoon (and posted in The Rumor Mill on The Bits) that they're working on Blu-ray Disc versions of Lolita and Barry Lyndon for 2011, along with a new Kubrick Blu-ray box set. Good news indeed for those who have been waiting. And before people start asking, there are no additional details yet, and there probably will not be for a while. Just know the films ARE coming to Blu next year, so we'll finally have the full Kubrick/Warner slate.

If I don't check in sooner, enjoy the weekend everyone!

[Doctorossi]

Thanks for the great news *ahem*... rumor, Bill.

I know you don't have any more details on Barry Lyndon and Lolita, but can you help me make sure I'm understanding your update correctly? Do you know if this upcoming boxset is going to mean new transfers for all of the included films? Or, if they didn't tell you, did they give you an impression from which you could make an educated guess?

[Oliver_A]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

They did not transfer the original 1977 opening to the 2006 "original" DVD versions.

Of course they did. The Star Wars logo zoom and pre-episode 4 textcrawl were newly transferred for this DVD from original film elements. They never appeared on home video before, only in cinemas before the 1981 re-release. Not only did they transfer the original textcrawl, it also includes the pan-down to the planet surface with the original 1977 moon (the 1981 release and all subsequent video releases prior to the special editions had a different moon) and the first sequence of the star destroyer chasing the rebel ship.

The next scene-cut is a cut back to the 1993 laserdisc master.

In fact, the release was really a slap in the face to fans.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it was a slap in the face. But that's not my point. My point is that the 2006 release practically invalidates all the previous official statements made by Lucasfilm against a release of the original versions:

1. The original film elements aren't available anymore. Then why was it possible to make a transfer of the original title sequence, including a small part of the original special effects?

2. George Lucas doesn't ever want them to see the light again. Then why did they bother to include them in the 2006 DVD at all? This only works when acknowledging that fans of the original versions are NOT a minority and that George actually is perfectly capable to change his mind concerning this matter.

However, I do believe, one day, Lucas will release the originals on BD as Star Wars is and always will be a revenue stream. They are already now calling them the "classic" versions so I can just imagine the marketing in several years when these get announced.

I'm afraid that this privilege has to be earned by the fans. By bugging the hell out of them. By making references to cases like Blade Runner or Close Encounters, where the original versions finally re-appeared on Blu Ray. Is Blade Runner really a more profitable film than the original Star Wars trilogy?

[Oliver_A]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Because there are people inside Lucasfilm trying to change his mind. They did get permission to run prints, fi they could find them of the originals in good enough shape.

They ended up going with the LD box because those were the best masters available. I know personally of several collectors who were contacted about access to their copies for that effort.

Then how were they able to transfer the original 1977 text crawl, if there weren't any film elements left good enough for an anamorphic DVD 720x480 transfer?

Getting that concession took YEARS, and then they didn't prove to be a selling point in any large numbers

I suppose that this is a hen-egg problem. Didn't they sell well, because fans don't care about the original versions? Or didn't they sell well, because the use of the non-anamorphic laserdisc masters created a big negative PR backlash against this release?

I said there are only several hundred who will outright refuse to purchase SW unless it's the original version, not that there are only a few hundred people who want them.

Then I am one of those several hundreds who did only buy the 2006 release. Not because I am a Star Wars maniac, but because I outright refuse to support historic and cultural revisionism. Films, like any cultural artefact, are always a product of their time.

The special editions to me, are like physically cutting the uneven background out of the Mona Lisa and replacing it with a new digital print-out of a CGI landscape.

I have rechecked the attitudes from several contacts in the last 12 months, and nothing has changed. You would probably do better writing to our first geek President and asking him to issue an executive order that they be preserved than bugging Lucas about it Because that's pretty much what it would take at this point

I think there are more possibilities than that. One of my theories is that the various fan made DVD transfers of the Laserdiscs were playing a supporting role in releasing the original versions. And we both know that 35mm and 70mm prints of the originals are in posession of various collectors.

The BFI even claims having a Technicolor dye print of the original Star Wars.

EDIT: In fact, just one moth ago, a British 35mm Technicolor print of the original, unaltered Star Wars was shown to people by the Senator Theater in North Baltimore. The video here shows parts of the screening of this print.

http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/reg...enator-theater

Someone made a short video of the screening. You can clearly see that the print seems to be in very good condition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEctWVF4J_w

Knowing that this was a very special event for any Star Wars fan, people made photos of the screening, too.

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Mov...48693565_GrcLK

I'm sorry, but I completely do not buy the "there are no good elements left" myth. It was stated somewhere that George Lucas himself owns one Technicolor print of Star Wars, which served as a color reference when they did restoration on the faded original negative.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

JK has a very valid point. I see it in much the same way. But scaling (output quality) also very much depends on with what you do the scaling. Some CC consoles work quite well, others don't do so hot at all. Clipster can do nice things, Baselight, so does S&W. The 2K = HD variant works best if you already plan it during the actual scan to the t. You can make it fit perfectly then, and get the scanners performance (another key factor) as an "add on", which of course, is the goal.

That's why I think that it is much better to start at 4k for wider movies (above 1.66 to 1) when all of the horizontal width is to be preserved - going from 2048 to 1920 pixels is a tough downconversion and downconversion from 4096 to 1920 can be done much better - provided as you say that suitable algorythms are used.

I think a 2k scan of an old academy ratio element is also a good example of how to get better results with higher resolution as one would go from about 2048 by 1495 to 1480 by 1080 pixels.

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

That's why I think that it is much better to start at 4k for wider movies (above 1.66 to 1) when all of the horizontal width is to be preserved - going from 2048 to 1920 pixels is a tough downconversion and downconversion from 4096 to 1920 can be done much better - provided as you say that suitable algorythms are used.

I think a 2k scan of an old academy ratio element is also a good example of how to get better results with higher resolution as one would go from about 2048 by 1495 to 1480 by 1080 pixels.

Oliver,

Aspect ratio has nothing to do with the element scanned. 1.66 is not wider than 1.37. 35mm 4 perf is 4:3 no matter how you slice it. Super 35 and Academy are based upon the same frame. A frame is a frame.

Both need to begin at least at 4k if working from originals. 6k can add something on newer stocks. From there, decisions are based upon what is being done and the purpose.

RAH

[depooter]

Will the digital bits ever get a redesign? It's been promised for years and the site is a relic of the 90s. It's time to make it happen. No more excuses guys.

[Jeff Kleist]

I think there are more possibilities than that. One of my theories is that the various fan made DVD transfers of the Laserdiscs were playing a supporting role in releasing the original versions. And we both know that 35mm and 70mm prints of the originals are in posession of various collectors.

The BFI even claims having a Technicolor dye print of the original Star Wars.

EDIT: In fact, just one moth ago, a British 35mm Technicolor print of the original, unaltered Star Wars was shown to people by the Senator Theater in North Baltimore. The video here shows parts of the screening of this print.

What about Empire and Jedi? They should release it with one good and 2 terrible? You're also making the assumption that the Lucas people knew about this print at the time.

I'm going to say it again one last time

George Lucas does not want people watching this version. It's about 5 steps up from his desire to track down every copy of the Holiday Special and burn them. Therefore he would not allow the hundreds of thousands of dollars to re-assemble the original cuts, and restore the changed footage to the same level from the material currently in his archives. While the original crawl may have been transferred, it would have been done for archival purposes and they snagged it from there.

Whatever excuses they are making today about why. This is what it boils down to and is unlikely to change at all in the forseeable future. So keep your Lasers, I know there are fan restorations out there for you to find. While you may disagree with it, and while some of the changes (Han shoots first) are silly and inexcuseable, you cannot scream director's vision in one direction and then say "....except Lucas".

Unlike firing Ron Moore or JJ Abrhams, Lucas is the creator and legal owner of Star Wars, and therefore has the legal, moral and ethical right to do with the films as he pleases, up top and including making party streamers from the negative. People close to him have been trying for over a decade now to get him to relent, the answer is and continues to be an emphatic no.

[NL197]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Unlike firing Ron Moore or JJ Abrhams, Lucas is the creator and legal owner of Star Wars, and therefore has the legal, moral and ethical right to do with the films as he pleases, up top and including making party streamers from the negative. People close to him have been trying for over a decade now to get him to relent, the answer is and continues to be an emphatic no.

Then Lucas can keep his altered versions and the very few that we are who don't want them (like myself) won't waste money on six movies we have no intention of ever watching just because they're on Blu-ray.

That's why I'm not getting this set. Sure the extras will undoubtedly be great, but there will be six movies in that set I don't want to watch. Pretty off-balance there, making it an easy decision.

[Oliver_A]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

What about Empire and Jedi? They should release it with one good and 2 terrible?

Where did I say that? This was just an example to illustrate that, in general, I don't believe the myth that there are no useable materials anymore for creating a decent transfer of the original films.

You're also making the assumption that the Lucas people knew about this print at the time.

This of course would mean that a private collector posesses better materials than what is being stored in the vaults of Lucasfilm. I find that very hard to believe, that they junked all of their better materials. Especially now, since new deleted scenes are anounced for the Blu Ray release. The Empire of Dreams documentary also contains lots of never before seen footage (transferred anamorphically of course).

And there is this mentioning of George Lucas private Technicolor dye print of Star Wars, which was being used as a color reference for the first 1997 restoration.

George Lucas does not want people watching this version. It's about 5 steps up from his desire to track down every copy of the Holiday Special and burn them.

So the 2006 release was created despite him not wanting people to watch it. This only makes sense if you bring the fans, the fan-edits and the people working at Lucasfilm into the equation. It makes no sense to deny or play down their influence.

Therefore he would not allow the hundreds of thousands of dollars to re-assemble the original cuts, and restore the changed footage to the same level from the material currently in his archives.

Probably. But most of the fans caring about the originals would probably be more than happy to have a HD transfer of a decent print. Perhaps that would enable them to finally do a documentation about the founding of ILM and the creation of the original, award winning special effects which set industry standards. On the documentary, people aren't even told they are not watching the original, historically significant films.

The original versions could be integrated quite elegantly to underline the historical importance of Star Wars and for setting new standards. With the Special Editions, this is hardly possible without inviting ridicule.

While the original crawl may have been transferred, it would have been done for archival purposes and they snagged it from there.

Makes one wonder what else might have been transferred or stored for archival purposes.

Whatever excuses they are making today about why. This is what it boils down to and is unlikely to change at all in the forseeable future. So keep your Lasers, I know there are fan restorations out there for you to find.

I personally don't need them, since I own both the THX 1995 Laserdisc set and the 2006 DVD's. I'm only suggesting that, despite being claimed otherwise, Lucasfilm does seem to react to their fanbase and their demands.

While you may disagree with it, and while some of the changes (Han shoots first) are silly and inexcuseable, you cannot scream director's vision in one direction and then say "....except Lucas".

I have no problem with George Lucas changing his films. I do however, have a problem when the existence of the originals are being denied. The films which won the hearts of the fans and inspired the industry.

George Lucas expressed his dislike of the colorization of The Three Stooges. How is that being different than putting new effects from a different era into a film which was otherwise so clearly made in the seventies? If I would meet him, that would be my only question.

Unlike firing Ron Moore or JJ Abrhams, Lucas is the creator and legal owner of Star Wars, and therefore has the legal, moral and ethical right to do with the films as he pleases, up top and including making party streamers from the negative. People close to him have been trying for over a decade now to get him to relent, the answer is and continues to be an emphatic no.

And yet, here I am playing right now the original theatrical release on my DVD player with the original 1977 opening.