Ask questions to BD authoring and compression insider "2themax"

[Anthony P]

Actually, this isn't entirely true

agree

LCD's do emit polarized light. It's how they work

LCDs don't emit light all of them need a light source. You are right that LCDs do need polarized filters in order to work. And so in a sense the light coming out of an LCD flat panel is polarized but for 3d to work you would need a second LCD layer after the polarize that can flip the polarization of the light coming out. And if you do that, then you might be better off with asynchronous glasses timed to the display (i.e. close eye 1 & open eye 2 then open 1 and close 2 .... timed with the images on screen)

but let's face it none of the LCDs today can use polarization for 3d and the only way I can think of would require a new LCD TV.

[Bobby Henderson]

Simply put, these things are needed for full color 3D to work in the home:

* 240Hz HDTV sets
* LCD shutter glasses with very fast response times
* Infrared or Bluetooth sync control for the glasses
* Possibly a new breed of Blu-ray player

240Hz televisions are needed since that is a common denominator between 24fps/48fps content for Hollywood 3D movies and 30fps/60fps content from broadcast TV sources.

[phansson]

2themax,

Is there any particular reason that the menus and trailers on Blu Rays are in 60p? For people (like myself) that have a projector/HDTV capable of 24p, it is annoying that everytime the picture switches from 60p/24p, the diplay has to re sync? I know this is a small problem, but it is something that could be addressed easily by the studios. Or maybe a force 24p option on all players.

Thank you,

Patrick
___________

[DaViD Boulet]

statements like this are misleading, and artificially raise the bar of expectation for 3-D playback.

Given that we right now have displays that display 24 fps film material in native 24p, at the bare minimum you'd only need a 48 Hz display to provide dual-channel 3-D video from 24 fps sources.

To reduce flicker, 96 Hz would assist nicely. And if one doesn't require "pure cadence" playback, the current generation of 120 Hz machines would work, albeit with some judder.

240 Hz would be ideal since it would also allow, as you say, for 3-D playback of 60Hz material and 24fps material all without added judder from cadence-alteration. But as far as 3-D playback of 24 fps material, which is the primary focus of the conversation regarding 3-D films, current display technology is already ready.

IMAX films are already frame-reduced for current media carriers (ie, we don't have 1080p 60Hz encoded IMAX movies on Blu-ray), so while being able to showcase native 3-D 60Hz material would be the holy grail... and a goal I'd like to see ultimately achieved, it's not the standard we'd need to wait for before we could allow ourselves to enjoy satisfying 1080p 3-D in the home.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Simply put, these things are needed for full color 3D to work in the home:

* 240Hz HDTV sets
* LCD shutter glasses with very fast response times
* Infrared or Bluetooth sync control for the glasses
* Possibly a new breed of Blu-ray player

240Hz televisions are needed since that is a common denominator between 24fps/48fps content for Hollywood 3D movies and 30fps/60fps content from broadcast TV sources.

[Bobby Henderson]

IMAX isn't projected at 60fps. The straight 15/70 process runs at 24fps. The 3D process features two 15/70 film strips running at 24fps.

The rarely used IMAX HD process ran the film at 48fps.

Showscan was the only 70mm format which filmed and projected material at 60fps rates.

[DaViD Boulet]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

IMAX isn't projected at 60fps. The straight 15/70 process runs at 24fps. The 3D process features two 15/70 film strips running at 24fps.

The rarely used IMAX HD process ran the film at 48fps.

Showscan was the only 70mm format which filmed and projected material at 60fps rates.

thanks for the clarification Bobby. I had been under the impression that 3-D IMAX productions where projected at "real" 48 fps (ie, not frame-doubled 24 fps)

[2themax]

Originally Posted by phansson

2themax,

Is there any particular reason that the menus and trailers on Blu Rays are in 60p? For people (like myself) that have a projector/HDTV capable of 24p, it is annoying that everytime the picture switches from 60p/24p, the diplay has to re sync? I know this is a small problem, but it is something that could be addressed easily by the studios. Or maybe a force 24p option on all players.

Thank you,

Patrick
___________

There's no technical reason for it. For the menu, it's entirely up to the team who is designing it. As for extras, it'll always be a mixed bag. Content is captured in many different ways from HD to SD.

[haruspex]

Hello 2themax.

Could you tell me whether you embed BD+ protection in your discs? If so, how is it done? E.g., do you receive some precompiled code from BD+ LLC that you then include? Also, what are the steps to obtain it? Do you need to purchase some kind of license?

Thank you for the answers in advance.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by haruspex

Hello 2themax.

Could you tell me whether you embed BD+ protection in your discs? If so, how is it done? E.g., do you receive some precompiled code from BD+ LLC that you then include? Also, what are the steps to obtain it? Do you need to purchase some kind of license?

Thank you for the answers in advance.

I haven't done any releases with BD+ personally. From what I understand, there is little done on my end. The majority of the work is done by Macrovision after the project is authored.

[haruspex]

I see.
Also, if that is not a trade secret, could you tell me how many people are occupied working on one project in total? Of course, I'm not asking for hard figures, just an order of magnitude, like one, or a dozen, or a gross.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by haruspex

I see.
Also, if that is not a trade secret, could you tell me how many people are occupied working on one project in total? Of course, I'm not asking for hard figures, just an order of magnitude, like one, or a dozen, or a gross.

In general, I'd say the average project has at least a dozen people involved while it is in production.

[zicmubleu]

2themax - I have encoded slideshows of jpeg images into a Blu-ray format but I don't think I have done it well, or as well as I should. I start with 14MP images that are 4592 x 3056 size, obviously not a 16:9 format. I do some processing of the jpeg image in Photoshop CS and crop them to a 16:9 size when that didn't lose portions of the image I wanted to keep. I then use Sony Vegas 8.0 to render a first pass (?) video file and then import that into Architect 4.5 for authoring. My earliest attempts worked but it always seemed to end up recompressing the files in the Architect authoring step. I have a couple of questions for the steps I use:

1 Cropping the jpeg image - should I leave it at the maximum pixel size with a 16:9 ratio or reduce it to a 1920x1080 size to reduce file size?

2 What output file type should I use in Vegas to reduce the chance of needing recompression in Architect and also keep the best PQ?

I am creating a slideshow of more than 500 images, which exceeds Architects file handling. So by using Vegas I can group jpeg files together and create a rendered file for import. So for the first question it is a matter of whether using Photoshop to reduce the image size will result in better quality than letting Vegas do the work? I think I lost quality when I reduced it in Photoshop rather than Vegas, but it does make the render process shorter, less prone to failure, etc. For that I might be able to reduce the number of images to group together and create more intermediate rendered files to keep them at maximum size for import to Vegas.

For step 2 I really can't figure out what is best to use, there are many choices but since I want to get a 1920x1080 image size it reduces it to just a few such as MainConcept Mpeg-2, or Video for Windows (*.avi 1920x1080).

There are two lesser choices Windows Media Video V9 (*.wmv 1440x1080), or Sony AVC (1440x1080) but I don't want to give up so many pixels.

I do add a sound track but I am not concerned with its quality at this time, these are for personal use only.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by zicmubleu

2themax - I have encoded slideshows of jpeg images into a Blu-ray format but I don't think I have done it well, or as well as I should. I start with 14MP images that are 4592 x 3056 size, obviously not a 16:9 format. I do some processing of the jpeg image in Photoshop CS and crop them to a 16:9 size when that didn't lose portions of the image I wanted to keep. I then use Sony Vegas 8.0 to render a first pass (?) video file and then import that into Architect 4.5 for authoring. My earliest attempts worked but it always seemed to end up recompressing the files in the Architect authoring step. I have a couple of questions for the steps I use:

1 Cropping the jpeg image - should I leave it at the maximum pixel size with a 16:9 ratio or reduce it to a 1920x1080 size to reduce file size?

2 What output file type should I use in Vegas to reduce the chance of needing recompression in Architect and also keep the best PQ?

I am creating a slideshow of more than 500 images, which exceeds Architects file handling. So by using Vegas I can group jpeg files together and create a rendered file for import. So for the first question it is a matter of whether using Photoshop to reduce the image size will result in better quality than letting Vegas do the work? I think I lost quality when I reduced it in Photoshop rather than Vegas, but it does make the render process shorter, less prone to failure, etc. For that I might be able to reduce the number of images to group together and create more intermediate rendered files to keep them at maximum size for import to Vegas.

For step 2 I really can't figure out what is best to use, there are many choices but since I want to get a 1920x1080 image size it reduces it to just a few such as MainConcept Mpeg-2, or Video for Windows (*.avi 1920x1080).

There are two lesser choices Windows Media Video V9 (*.wmv 1440x1080), or Sony AVC (1440x1080) but I don't want to give up so many pixels.

I do add a sound track but I am not concerned with its quality at this time, these are for personal use only.

I would do the resizing of the photos in Photoshop. It will be a lengthy process with that many photos, but you'll have better results.

Coming out of Vegas, I'd go with an MPEG2 encode using one of the 1920x1080 templates for Blu-ray. Architect shouldn't reencode the video that way. I don't have Architect to test that out though.

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by 2themax

I would do the resizing of the photos in Photoshop. It will be a lengthy process with that many photos, but you'll have better results.

Coming out of Vegas, I'd go with an MPEG2 encode using one of the 1920x1080 templates for Blu-ray. Architect shouldn't reencode the video that way. I don't have Architect to test that out though.

Thanks. It is fairly easy to resize the photos with a batch process in photoshop but the cropping is a photo by photo step. I will give it another go with resizing in Photoshop. I really thought I was losing detail since both Photoshop and Vegas are mucking around with pixel conversion. Thanks again for your advice.

Maybe one more question, this might be out of your area of expertise, is there a video editor that will manipulate the jpeg info file and include it as a banner, cc or pip? I would be nice to have the time stamp show up as a CC for a brief moment as well as other data such as my GPS coordinate or typed in information.

[Bobby Henderson]

Adobe After Effects is more geared to handling motion graphics. You can animate raster-based artwork from Photoshop as well as vector-based artwork from Illustrator. It's a very powerful, handy tool.

Additionally, you can customize the pixel size of motion graphics layouts in After Effects to just about any size you want. I use it for creating motion graphics for LED-based electronic variable message centers ("jumbotrons").

Regarding the use of JPEG images, hopefully you're not re-saving the cropped images again in JPEG. Data is permanently thrown away every time an image is re-saved in JPEG format. It's a lossy compression format. A JPEG-based image that has been saved a 2nd or 3rd time over in JPEG again will have even more image degradation.

JPEG2000 has a lossless compression mode, but it's the same difference as saving a lossless LZW compressed flattened TIFF image.

Generally, the best thing to do when editing images is work with uncompressed or lossless compressed images. You can edit and re-edit repeatedly without the image suffering in the process. Use lossy formats like JPEG only when it is needed and when it is the last step in processing that image.

I would be feeding Architect 4.5 images saved in TIFF or BMP rather than JPEG.

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Adobe After Effects is more geared to handling motion graphics. You can animate raster-based artwork from Photoshop as well as vector-based artwork from Illustrator. It's a very powerful, handy tool.

Additionally, you can customize the pixel size of motion graphics layouts in After Effects to just about any size you want. I use it for creating motion graphics for LED-based electronic variable message centers ("jumbotrons").

Regarding the use of JPEG images, hopefully you're not re-saving the cropped images again in JPEG. Data is permanently thrown away every time an image is re-saved in JPEG format. It's a lossy compression format. A JPEG-based image that has been saved a 2nd or 3rd time over in JPEG again will have even more image degradation.

JPEG2000 has a lossless compression mode, but it's the same difference as saving a lossless LZW compressed flattened TIFF image.

Generally, the best thing to do when editing images is work with uncompressed or lossless compressed images. You can edit and re-edit repeatedly without the image suffering in the process. Use lossy formats like JPEG only when it is needed and when it is the last step in processing that image.

I would be feeding Architect 4.5 images saved in TIFF or BMP rather than JPEG.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will have to look at the Adobe After Effects to see just what it does for me. My original image is in jpeg which has the info file included, not sure if other formats would include that data but maybe. Converting the images to TIFF or BMP is something I am not really familiar with so that would be a learning curve and probably not what you are really suggesting. I also would have to look at what Vegas will import since Architect will not handle the quantity of files I want to work with.

The Adobe After Effects gives me something to dig into, thanks.

[mrjlaunch]

2themax do you think we'll see 7.1ch coming out as standard on new release bluerays by the end of the year? Seems a let-down that no one bar Lionsgate is backing it, all others are going straight to 5.1 audio even with this years box office movies.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by mrjlaunch

2themax do you think we'll see 7.1ch coming out as standard on new release bluerays by the end of the year? Seems a let-down that no one bar Lionsgate is backing it, all others are going straight to 5.1 audio even with this years box office movies.

I don't think we'll see 7.1 as a standard in the near feature. Not many studios are going to invest in remixing the 5.1 theatrical mix to 7.1 for the Blu-ray release.

[cali123]

I might think of it as a Blue-ray v2.0 player. 2160p Mpeg4 24fps & 30fps would be supported as additional disc recording formats that the player would recognize and newer players from at least 1 manufacturer who agrees with this but preferably all of them would add these as formats.

These players would also support upconversion to 2160p & a fiber optic output maybe called fiberHDMI or 4 standard HDMI ports would be linked to deliver a 2160p signal. The player would average about $50 more and/or no additional cost but no backward capatability to DVD/CD (as many probably already own a DVD player that also handles CD's) & would support the new technology as well as up or cross conversion to 2160i & p.

In Detail...
If any disc could deliver this, I would think Blue-ray with its huge capacity would be the one; here's why I think this is an immediate necessity for HD of tomarrow, even if only 1080p content is recorded on it.

1. Currently many providers are starting to offer HD-VOD libraries of content, while to the best of my knowledge, the bitrate & quality is better with Blueray discs, convenience may take a front seat possibly slowing down the BD towards possible extinction, maybe over the next few years.

2. True there has to be collaborative technology improvements with other devices such as the HDTV, but I feel technology is at a stall with everyone waiting for the other to make a move & I feel it has to start at the stand alone player, at least build some kind of offering/format with a few players. The worst I would think you'll have is a few players with features that will never be used.

3. I feel hollywood is not going to want to invest in 2160p, very expensive technology but they definately wont until theres a format to carry it. While collectively hollywood, I feel, wont; if the player comes out and HDTV's with 2160p start popping up over a few years, then I can see hollywood launching some movies, such as, say "Star Wars, a new Jaws version". I could just see it, Jaws, coming at me in my living room in 2160p & Blueray looking stellar.

4. Again, I strongly feel the disc has to lead the way, cable technology, unless they have a very new system, I feel would really struggle to carry this format & cable companies with newer systems, I don't feel would cause they could end up jepardizing relationships they have with their competitors over content they carry (maybe cause their competitor can't carry it yet) & HDTV companies wont want to make these TV's on a large scale if no one is going to buy it.

5. I wouldn't buy an HDTV over 52", their 1080p starts to get soft, even with the 52" aquos I have, I still kick up the sharpness to about +4 to enjoy crisp edges in both imagery & around lettering (characters) but 52" in a wide screen dosent look all that big anymore. 4x the resolution, 2160p, I could envision a 100" HDTV in 10 years for $3,500 and I would buy that. In 10 years i'll need a new HDTV but for it to roll, again I feel it has to start with the disc now.

Please, please either respond back if something like this is already in the works or please, no matter what your position is on this; please give it to the right people that could make this happen.

[bunny_foofoo]

Hi 2themax,

I asked a question in the Digital Bits thread and Jeff answered, but said maybe you could add to his advise. Below is my question and his response.




I am not sure I am in the right thread for this. I read around and did not see any thread specifically talking about getting classes, or even specific coding, involved with bluray or the digital television conversion.

I have ideas on how to make movies, television and advertising more interactive. I already have a degree in advertising and 8 years experience in the field of advertising. I want to learn the tools to be able to produce interactive features in bluray and digital television.

I go to colleges and they just stare at me. I know back-end coding is involved. I know their MAY be programs in place to handle bluray interactive menu options (or it may all be done in code). But no one (not even programmers in varying backgrounds) can point me in the right direction.

I dont have to be in a college environment. I am not looking at getting another degree. I just want to learn the tools to execute my interactive ideas. Please help. T am located in South Florida (east coast)--if that helps with anything that can aid me in my area.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

First make sure you have a solid background in Java and flash. Then you're going to have to go to NY or LA for Blu-ray specific classes. They're really expensive though, expect to drop over $10k on a 6-8 class course in authoring/BD-J

Digital interactive TV doesn't really exist in the states, not like the "red button" stuff in europe. I do know there are some TV production schools in south Florida, but since the majority of the buis is in LA, and the rest in the greater NY area, you're pretty limited to those locations. Backend stuff is virtually non-existant for Blu-ray applications, it's all being run locally and the back end is little more than the web servers already standing as I understand it

2themax is someone who can probably help you further