4K Movies Releases

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Wow, Dolby, Technicolor and Sony each planning their own version. Somehow I see Dolby getting the 4K BD and TV market but wouldn't having a clear "winning" version help the introduction of 4K BDs or are they so determined to make it a stream only thing, 'cause that's all you read. I might have come off as a streaming fan, though I never did stream anything, but I'm for what's best and seemingly BD should be from what is said here.

Dolby Vision is a proprietary standard and while Dolby has done well with some of their proprietary standards I think that a universal standard for HDR would have been better. Dolby is aiming for 20,000 nits, which I consider very excessive, and seems similar to the NHK which is aiming for 8K video with 22.2 channel audio. Also since the Rec. 2020 standard specifies a larger color space the only thing that Dolby Vision adds would be HDR. Dolby Vision can support a larger color space but it doesn't sound like it is required so it is possible that some of the Dolby Vision displays getting released later this year will simply use the HDTV color space with higher brightness.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Any options achieving equivalent picture quality level to that of full (consumer) Dolby Vision would probably require 10 bit panels from TV manufacturers such as the Vizio reference which was shown at the last CES…..although I wouldn’t be surprised if at a future CES if some marketer types would enjoy advertising a new model TV based on a special sauced version of 8 bit B.T.709 as ‘HDR’, if they could.

Might that be true for some of the Dolby Vision displays getting released later this year? I notice that Dolby has been careful not to say anything about required color space. The only requirement I could find for Dolby Vision displays is that they must support a brightness of at least 400 nits.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Weird (but I guess it’s another indication of how my mind works with word associations…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...nd#post8729263 ) as every time you (being a former RED follower) check into this thread, I’m now compelled to briefly visit the RED forum just to see what’s cooking over there. Ergo, talk about throwing out a bone with a sliver of meat on it to a pack of starving creatures – “REDRAY is not dead.....”…..http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...=1#post1322268

Wendell, you’ve got to alert Mark H. to that ^.

My question is what will become available first to anyone who is interested in partaking?….the Redray or, a worthwhile filmmaking course covering career advice topics typically not presented in film school - https://www.facebook.com/Advancedfilmmaking

Because, after all, at their basic core, aren’t the Red Users aspiring filmmakers first?

lol semi-bro. And I also noticed it was now shipping as I was browsing Gibby's Supermarket today (Canadian Eh!) and saw it advertised for $2k, then I started laughing uncontrollably. Not only is it stupid expensive but the only media will be your own, but as you said, being aspiring filmmakers some will surely bite, or not. It's not the in-thing to have anymore hehe

Also, unless I'm mistaken, audio is now limited to 24/48, which is really enough but that also means you will need to own a BDP, a music player if you don't have a quality BDP or AVR. If it's still alive in 3 months it's a miracle hehe

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

lol semi-bro. And I also noticed it was now shipping as I was browsing Gibby's Supermarket today (Canadian Eh!) and saw it advertised for $2k...

Are you kidding?

I haven’t kept up with RED but I don’t think the redray players are really shipping to the common man. I think Jarred would have made a formal announcement to that effect on their forum rather than throwing out a tiny bone of hope to the faithful.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...Might that be true for some of the Dolby Vision displays getting released later this year? I notice that Dolby has been careful not to say anything about required color space. The only requirement I could find for Dolby Vision displays is that they must support a brightness of at least 400 nits.

In a word…Yes……that’ll probably be true.

Like with a lot of things…there’s ‘requirement’ and there’s ‘support’. Dolby Vision can support B.T. 2020 and even wider, e.g. capable of XYZ encoding (post #2198 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...yz#post8479235)

But, after what might turn out to be *initial forays* by some TV manufacturers that feature Dolby Vision licensing, the compelling thing is that I think Dolby’s preference or ideal for next gen video is for TV manufacturers to ultimately aspire to mating higher brightness with a WCG (wide color gamut) with the displays they offer to consumers. To get the full potential of that at 4K rez, TVs are probably going to need to be 10-bit HEVC capable.

Just so there’s no misunderstanding, I’m not encouraging any readers to race out and purchase a 4K TV that features Dolby Vision, be it Vizio, Sharp, some Chinese manufacturer or whatever be your favorite local-dimming LED backlight brand, because the significant thing that’s needed is for there to be Dolby Vision TVs with Dolby Vision content and if some think 4K content is wanting…well, Dolby Vision content is almost embryonic in comparison….with Technicolor HDR content being at the fertilization stage. The thing I admire about Dolby (and Technicolor) is that with their HDR, WCG and brightness total solution they’re already putting pressure on TV manufacturers to think about providing consumers with something other than just plain vanilla 4K…sooner than they might have otherwise….which is good.

Editorial - New tech has to start somewhere, be it for the SD->HD, DVD -> Blu-ray evolutions or 4K -> 4K enhanced (UHD) and whether or not the industry-at-large accepts a proprietary solution like Dolby Vision as a standard, the key thing is that Dolby, and for that matter Technicolor, is getting HDR and WCG into peoples’ consciousness. Internet posters may hem-and-haw over the value of 4K (especially those hobbyists with strong inherent bias due to upgrade fatigue), but the visual value of HDR compared to SDR (current TVs with Standard Dynamic Range...more commonly described in the scientific literature as ‘LDR’ (low density range) is undeniable, as I mentioned months before any HDR sets demoed at trade shows like CES. It will provide a ‘wow’ effect even to non-videophiles standing at the back of a demo room or their local consumer electronics store.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...Dolby is aiming for 20,000 nits, which I consider very excessive, and seems similar to the NHK which is aiming for 8K video with 22.2 channel audio.

Richard, that figure was derived from the initial research with the experimental display which they built, see…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ts#post8498218

The results of which ^ led them to propose that it be best if the master format be capable of handling a brightness range of 0-10,000 cd/m2 (nits for you guys, or ‘cootie eggs’ for my niece). For their demos they’ve actually been grading the content up to only 4,000 nits, so their implementation is not as excessive as some press reports might indicate.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

good luck Penton Man.

Well Steed, that took less time than I’d expected. I got thru the whole match in less than 25min.! as I watched it at normal speed up until just after the third goal was scored, then fast forwarded it x5 until the end of the match.

Peter, since you yearn for soccer scoring, there were a lot of goals….and you didn’t have to wait long for them.

“sucks”

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well Steed, that took less time than I’d expected. I got thru the whole match in less than 25min.! as I watched it at normal speed up until just after the third goal was scored, then fast forwarded it x5 until the end of the match.

Peter, since you yearn for soccer scoring, there were a lot of goals….and you didn’t have to wait long for them.

“sucks”

Bad weekend for both our teams. I believe we will both look back at this weekend as the deciding factor in our teams season. Our relegation and gunners missing out on title. I honestly believe that.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In a word…Yes……that’ll probably be true.

Like with a lot of things…there’s ‘requirement’ and there’s ‘support’.

It is great that Dolby is promoting improvements in video quality that most CE companies are ignoring but I did think it was suspicious that the only requirement mentioned for Dolby Vision was 400 nits of brightness.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Richard, that figure was derived from the initial research with the experimental display which they built, see…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ts#post8498218

The results of which ^ led them to propose that it be best if the master format be capable of handling a brightness range of 0-10,000 cd/m2 (nits for you guys, or ‘cootie eggs’ for my niece). For their demos they’ve actually been grading the content up to only 4,000 nits, so their implementation is not as excessive as some press reports might indicate.

Grading movies for 4,000 nits is lower though I do wonder about the real world problems of an HDR system that has a goal of 1,000+ nits of brightness. An HDR system of 400 nits I could see working since they could use a standard gamma curve (instead of a patented gamma curve which would have to be licensed) and it would have less of a problem with advertisements, display cost, and energy regulations.

[Penton-Man]

DCP for About Last Night which opens in the U.S. in 4 days, this Friday, Valentine’s Day -

Image Format: 4K 4096 x 1716 (Scope)
File Size: 110 GB
Audio Format: 5.1

About Last Night Trailer 2014 Kevin Hart Movie - Official [HD] - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...Grading movies for 4,000 nits is lower though I do wonder about the real world problems of an HDR system that has a goal of 1,000+ nits of brightness. An HDR system of 400 nits I could see working since they could use a standard gamma curve (instead of a patented gamma curve which would have to be licensed) and it would have less of a problem with advertisements, display cost, and energy regulations.

The Vizio reference (peak brightness of 800 nits) is a “early supporter of Dolby Vision” …http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/6/527...lls-3d-support

I don’t feel there would be problem with meeting Cali regs (http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/2009_tvregs/ ). As to display cost, I guess folks will just have to wait and see for the forthcoming price announcement. I don’t know if/when advertisers would pay more for HDR commercials….that’s just not my field.

Aside…for the sake of those other readers not familiar with the whole Dolby ecosystem thing, the idea they’re proposing is to change current practice of motion picture grading (which is done at 100 nits), and instead use HDR grading which would be done at a much higher brightness (~ 4,000 nits) and then use their special coding - http://www.google.com/patents/EP2675162A2?cl=en to feed consumer displays capable of least 400 nits brightness and have that imagery decoded as per their solution.

For some background, current flat panels are generally capable of 300-500 nits and as noted above, Vizio claims 800 nits. The other brands which apparently have the Dolby Vision license as a feature is/are some Sharp Elite model which allegedly clocks in at 700 – 800 nits and the Chinese manufacturer TCL of which I don’t know how many nits it’s capable of pumping out.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

4K DCP for About Last Night which opens in the U.S. in 4 days, this Friday, Valentine’s Day

About Last Night Valentine's Day Trailer (2014) - Regina Hall, Kevin Hart Movie HD - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

….with Technicolor HDR content being at the fertilization stage.

With the above ^ wording I don’t mean to be dismissive of Technicolor’s efforts in this field. On the contrary, rather far from it, as they were probably the FIRST to put the ‘H’ in HDR in terms of using a soon to become very popular 4K professional digital camera(s) and getting dynamic range on the order of 20 f-stops rather than less…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...16#post8569119 .

What I mean is that with one past collaborative project, they took a Binocle 3D rig with two Sony F55 cameras and placed a neutral gray filter on one of the cameras in order to essentially produce underexposed and overexposed images of the captured footage. Then, after correcting the geometric disparity between the images, they fused both sets of views to produce a true HIGH dynamic range sequence, e.g. on the order of 20 f-stops…as a single F55 camera is nowhere near capable of that dynamic range. What is significant about that work is that is showed a method for true HDR content creation, be it for motion pictures or TV shows in the future.

It’s just that Dolby is far ahead of them in audio/video public awareness of HDR by getting their product displayed on consumer TVs as opposed to that with Technicolor demonstrating their HDR solution only on special TVs like the model I asked Santa for before Christmas …https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...im#post8561386 .

Plus, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Dolby introduces a plug-in for color grading software tools in the D.I. suite sometime in the near future as they’re firing on all cylinders.

It should be noted that both companies have something like inverse tone mapping solutions to convert legacy content (like Chicago) into 'HDR', or what might be more appropriately termed extended dynamic range in order to produce and supply an HDR distribution chain of material.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The Vizio reference (peak brightness of 800 nits) is a “early supporter of Dolby Vision” …http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/6/527...lls-3d-support

I don’t feel there would be problem with meeting Cali regs (http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/2009_tvregs/ ). As to display cost, I guess folks will just have to wait and see for the forthcoming price announcement. I don’t know if/when advertisers would pay more for HDR commercials….that’s just not my field.

Aside…for the sake of those other readers not familiar with the whole Dolby ecosystem thing, the idea they’re proposing is to change current practice of motion picture grading (which is done at 100 nits), and instead use HDR grading which would be done at a much higher brightness (~ 4,000 nits) and then use their special coding - http://www.google.com/patents/EP2675162A2?cl=en to feed consumer displays capable of least 400 nits brightness and have that imagery decoded as per their solution.

For some background, current flat panels are generally capable of 300-500 nits and as noted above, Vizio claims 800 nits. The other brands which apparently have the Dolby Vision license as a feature is/are some Sharp Elite model which allegedly clocks in at 700 – 800 nits and the Chinese manufacturer TCL of which I don’t know how many nits it’s capable of pumping out.

So you reckon this stuff has a big chance of being in our living rooms in the future Penton Man?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

So you reckon this stuff has a big chance of being in our living rooms in the future Penton Man?

Well, full Dolby Vision is quite disruptive to the status quo so it faces significant challenges but, yes, at least some version of HDR (be it proprietary solution or not) will be in our living rooms in the future….because as I’ve said previously, 4K sales will eventually taper off and TV manufacturers will be forced to upgrade basic 4K. The increased bandwidth requirement (about 20-25%) needed to implement even full Dolby Vision is far less than that needed for going from HD -> 4K.

I think you’ll also see HFR (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...fr#post8628879) in our living rooms in the future, but that will take much longer in coming.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think you’ll also see HFR...

b.t.w., I’m talking about 4K displays capable of accepting native higher (120 Hz) signal 4K content and showing frame rates in 120 Hz.

I’m not referring to ‘refresh rates’ or such things as ‘AquoMotion’ or ‘MotionFlow’.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

extended dynamic range

We’ll save that thought ^ (X-tended Dynamic Range) for a brief note tomorrow.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

b.t.w., I’m talking about 4K displays capable of accepting native higher (120 Hz) signal 4K content and showing frame rates in 120 Hz.

I’m not referring to ‘refresh rates’ or such things as ‘AquoMotion’ or ‘MotionFlow’.

Will it have the same 'video look' though? Big no no from me if it does. I know you mentioned tech that would add HFR to action scenes but look normal otherwise. Maybe that would be better, I'm just so unconvinced at the moment.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Will it have the same 'video look' though? Big no no from me if it does. I know you mentioned tech that would add HFR to action scenes but look normal otherwise. Maybe that would be better, I'm just so unconvinced at the moment.

Hey steed buddy, how you doing? penton, semi-bro, tx again for all the info and links, quite interesting.

Steed, I was listening to "Ted from Red" from CES and while his products are becoming more and more of a laughing matter (except the cameras obviously) since he's shifting the project as time passes by to try to meet his set schedule. But he's still a smart guy and he had something interesting about HFR.

Basically his view could be resumed to this. For all the "older" gen movie goers, HFR is sacrilege, but for the new gen, they don't have a visual memory of how movies "should" look like and are already used to HFR through gaming and high video consumption. Basically HFR will become viable once that gen becomes the prime market and one point I also liked was that once we get past the "need" for 24 fps we will also open a brand new world of possibilities that is now limited not by the technology, but by the users who don't want "better".

I am not saying better for the sake of an argument, but I do get what he means, cinema is one of the rare tech businesses that is not evolving passed what new tech can accomplish.

I, for one, would love to one day own an OLED 4K, HDR, HFR with 12-bit panel, who wouldn't? But that also will need content. Obviously broadcasting something like the Superbowl, Nascar and hockey would be a dream, I believe for all, but the improvement will have to be highly superior to what "Smooth-Motion, etc" offers now so to get more than just the videophiles interested.

But I think the idea of keeping a film look based on digital "video" sources is bound to change soon enough, as long as you start off by marketing the right movies. I'm sure this HFR debate is practically inexistent in the 23-24 and younger crowd, or there is very little. In the people I know who went to see "The Hobbit" in HFR, only 4 didn't like, they were also all in there 40s. All of my nieces, nephews, daughter and friends loved it, they loved that the action was finally not smeared, hey they get their expectations from video games.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Hey steed buddy, how you doing? penton, semi-bro, tx again for all the info and links, quite interesting.

Steed, I was listening to "Ted from Red" from CES and while his products are becoming more and more of a laughing matter (except the cameras obviously) since he's shifting the project as time passes by to try to meet his set schedule. But he's still a smart guy and he had something interesting about HFR.

Basically his view could be resumed to this. For all the "older" gen movie goers, HFR is sacrilege, but for the new gen, they don't have a visual memory of how movies "should" look like and are already used to HFR through gaming and high video consumption. Basically HFR will become viable once that gen becomes the prime market and one point I also liked was that once we get past the "need" for 24 fps we will also open a brand new world of possibilities that is now limited not by the technology, but by the users who don't want "better".

I am not saying better for the sake of an argument, but I do get what he means, cinema is one of the rare tech businesses that is not evolving passed what new tech can accomplish.

I, for one, would love to one day own an OLED 4K, HDR, HFR with 12-bit panel, who wouldn't? But that also will need content. Obviously broadcasting something like the Superbowl, Nascar and hockey would be a dream, I believe for all, but the improvement will have to be highly superior to what "Smooth-Motion, etc" offers now so to get more than just the videophiles interested.

But I think the idea of keeping a film look based on digital "video" sources is bound to change soon enough, as long as you start off by marketing the right movies. I'm sure this HFR debate is practically inexistent in the 23-24 and younger crowd, or there is very little. In the people I know who went to see "The Hobbit" in HFR, only 4 didn't like, they were also all in there 40s. All of my nieces, nephews, daughter and friends loved it, they loved that the action was finally not smeared, hey they get their expectations from video games.

Well, done right it could be exciting I suppose. As long as it's progress as opposed to just new stuff for the sake of it. Penton man seems to champion The HDR so I will tip my hat to him.

Yes, I'm fine thanks. Anxious about my teams impending encounter with a free-scoring Man City but apart from that, fine. You?

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Well, done right it could be exciting I suppose. As long as it's progress as opposed to just new stuff for the sake of it. Penton man seems to champion The HDR so I will tip my hat to him.

Yes, I'm fine thanks. Anxious about my teams impending encounter with a free-scoring Man City but apart from that, fine. You?

You know, I should be ashamed of my total lack of commitment to real "football" lol. I started practicing at 5 and played on my high school teams all years, and as part of the official league team we creamed our way through the season. Point being my dad was Irish (though from Belfast, but I ain't touching that part hehe ) So cycling and soccer were basically ingrained in me (my dad actually started the coaching program at school). And then the "N. American sports took over as I also played on the school's football team.

But watching it has dwindled after the Montreal 1976 Olympics were I was very fortunate to assist to the July 29, 1976 Bronze Medal match between the Soviet Union and Brasil. All I can say is there were many local fans highly disappointed lol.

I know, like you, all this "real world" video look just doesn't cut it for movies and I can't stand watching anything else than sports with motion smoothing. What I would like to see though is a fast paced action movie, concerts or sports before I close my mind to HFR. Tbh I didn't see the Hobbit in HFR, I'm open minded but know I would of hated it at the same time