4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Geoff D]

I think the 'disc space' thing isn't too far off. Still, the PiP thing was added to Blu-ray with a later profile, so I certainly won't rule out similar revisions to UHD BD down the line (though I can't see 4K 3D ever becoming a thing).

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, that was something picked up by people when Fox showed that Kingsman cover mockup. 'UHD' can cover whatever they want it to cover, but if it sez 4K and it's not 4K then there's gonna be a problem, not with us informed internet types but when johnny newcomer gets the disc and sees its "only" 1080p he's not gonna be best pleased.

Yes, I *know* there's all that other good stuff that johnny can enjoy (P3, HDR, the wider colour volume that is brought to the table by that combination which can greatly benefit any resolution) but he won't see it that way, you know what people are like with their numbers: if it sez one thing and they're getting another then they gets angry.

Samsung got away with calling their 4k content box 4k

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Any idea when Steve Withers plans to post this interview with the UHD Alliance? "There's an interview coming soon that I did with the president of the Ultra HD Alliance where he goes into this in some detail."

https://www.avforums.com/threads/the...#post-22621704

I'm wondering if he can add anything to the 9 September interview.

Also how do members feel about the "several hundred consumers primarily in the Los Angeles area" that are being used to determine the "premium experience" for what is likely to be a micro niche videophile product?

I wonder what selection criteria was used and whether any videophiles were included in the group?

Yes, the interview went up yesterday: https://www.avforums.com/article/ult...levision.11916

Again, more of the same corporate waffle, dancing around the various points and not committing to much of anything. And I had to chuckle when he said they "think" they have a solution for tone mapping a brighter HDR source to a less bright HDR display, which doesn't inspire me with confidence about how the lesser HDR to SDR transform will work. And he also reiterates something that's been in the background for a while: the increase in spatial resolution alone of 4K isn't worth a damn versus 2K because of the lack of temporal resolution inherent to 24fps in general. Way to sell it to current 4K owners who can't use all that other good stuff, Hanno! But then that's not the point of his spiel, is it? The point is to start the 4K purchasing cycle all over again, but y'all will forgive me for being somewhat saddle-sore.

[dvdboy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think the 'disc space' thing isn't too far off. Still, the PiP thing was added to Blu-ray with a later profile, so I certainly won't rule out similar revisions to UHD BD down the line (though I can't see 4K 3D ever becoming a thing).

One thing that was apparent was the 'additional work' involved in HDR - people were talking about Menus and Subtitles having to be 'stored' with both Rec 709 and Rec 2020 colour spaces, although reading the spec it talks about separate CLUTs.

I can't see them re-adding PIP later on, and I think reading between the lines with Dolby Vision, PIP has been sacrificed for HDR functionality:

The Dolby Vision video stream is composed of a BDMV HDR video stream and a Dolby Vision enhancement layer video stream. The enhancement layer is an HEVC video stream with embedded Dolby Vision metadata. The Dolby Vision is characterized by the followings:

• color primaries: BT.2020 with non-constant luminance
• EOTF(Electro-Optical Transfer Function): SMPTE 2084
• Bit depth: 12bit (combination of BDMV HDR video stream and Dolby Vision enhancement layer)
• Enhancement layer video stream: 1920x1080 resolution, same frame rate with the BDMV HDR video stream, 100Mbps or lower together with the BDMV HDR video stream

The Dolby rep was saying (paraphrasing here, so apologies for the errors in recollection) "You don't need your highlights 1px in size", hence the enhancement layer only being HD - it must be scaled when overlaid.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Samsung got away with calling their 4k content box 4k

But that was a wee little hard drive with a few movies loaded on, wasn't it? It wasn't really a product that everyone could go and buy regardless of their brand so it got very little wider exposure. Once 4K labelled content that isn't 4K starts hitting the mainstream outlets where jo blow can pick a 4K movie off the shelf, the shit will hit the fan. Unless they drop the 4K, of course.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But that was a wee little hard drive with a few movies loaded on, wasn't it? It wasn't really a product that everyone could go and buy regardless of their brand so it got very little wider exposure. Once 4K labelled content that isn't 4K starts hitting the mainstream outlets where jo blow can pick a 4K movie off the shelf, the shit will hit the fan. Unless they drop the 4K, of course.

We know the master res of the fox titles, but we do not yet know the res on disc.
They may be upscaled

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdboy

The Dolby rep was saying (paraphrasing here, so apologies for the errors in recollection) "You don't need your highlights 1px in size", hence the enhancement layer only being HD - it must be scaled when overlaid.

Thanks for that, I originally thought it was because the enhancement data didn't strictly need to be 2160p but it's nice to have a confirmation as to exactly why it's not.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

We know the master res of the fox titles, but we do not yet know the res on disc.
They may be upscaled

Which would be something of a waste of space IMO, though *if* there is a lack of TL lines at launch then their hand may be forced into 1080p encodes (from 2K sources) anyway.

[bailey1987]

Has any one thought about the negative impact a 1080p HDR Blu-ray could have?

Look at it this way, Blu-ray could have launched with HDR. My point is some people may not take too well to the format because it appears incomplete, there still adding features to standard Blu-ray's that would have been better there from launch, the format war adds credence to this argument.

I for one clearly see a negative in the 1080p HDR Blu-ray, in that it could have been there from launch.

On another note, will they increases the brightness of 3D content so that it appears closer to the 2D image, if and when 3D comes along will there be any advancement that prevents the glasses from negating the benefit of HDR?

[Geoff D]

What 3D content? There is no 3D in the UHD BD dojo.

And labelling something as 4K when it's not could have an equally negative impact. Rock, meet hard place.

[bailey1987]

Another question about 3D and this applies to both Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray. Do they(whoever they are?) plan to standardise the glasses that are used? Why are we given glasses that do not need batteries in the cinema and glasses that do need batteries at home? Has it even been decided which works best, active shutter glasses or polarized?

I was planning to buy one of Epson's new 1080p 3D projectors this Christmas it was then I realised that the glasses used are active shutter which I have no experience with, I'm sure some will be quick to say active shutter but is that just because it runs on electricity? I did happen to view an LG 3D TV in PC World years ago that used the glasses like the ones used for Real D presentations, I can't deny that it looked good but it made me wonder if the active shutter glasses are any better, and for that matter how are they getting away with it?

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What 3D content? There is no 3D in the UHD BD dojo.

And labelling something as 4K when it's not could have an equally negative impact. Rock, meet hard place.

Lets take the 3D content out of the equation, that will arrive when the format allows it but in cinemas it will no doubt arrive just before the home version, that 3D content will be shot or post converted on machines similar to the ones used now for current 3D. My questions don't relate to the lack of content.

As for labelling it 4K when it's not I agree damaging indeed.

[bailey1987]

Just one last thing about 3D, how much do you bet that the new 4K 3D cinema projectors, which I admit I am just crystal balling, post convert all films to 3D on the fly, much like how consumer 3D TV's and projectors do now?

[bailey1987]

What are the chances that we could be heading into another format war? I personally think a few are sat far too content. Look at all the companies involved with HDR Philips and Dolby for two, I would not be surprised to see Ultra HD DVD vs Ultra HD Blu-ray at CES 2015. If there both not presented there I can still see which ever is a no show appearing later in the year even if one has launched in the meantime. I can also see PS5 and Xbox Two being the main battle ground at the rate there going at. I would laugh if Nintendo included a surprise contender in it's next console we could have a three way then, imagine that.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And labelling something as 4K when it's not could have an equally negative impact. Rock, meet hard place.

We all know that most of the Fox movies aren't natively 4K, but I doubt the discs won't be 4K. Just like with 28 Days Later on Blu-ray: the movie was natively 576p but the Blu-ray was 1080p.

While it will never look like native 4K putting 4K files on the disc will prevent the TV or player from having to upscale on the fly, making for a more consistent picture across all TVs and players. As I previously stated a new TV and player will be required for HDR regardless of resolution so there really isn't any disadvantage in making 4K HDR discs instead of 1080p HDR discs for 2K content.

As for the size issue I think 66GB will be sufficient for now; current 1080p movies are rarely larger than 30GB and they aren't using HEVC.

Personally I think that releasing a lot of 1080p HDR discs (that are labeled as such) would make the format do even worse. The die hard videophiles that only want native 4K content will likely do research so they'll know which ones to buy. The people who just want the next big thing will be drawn to the words "4K" they won't necessarily even know what HDR is. When they play the discs they will look better than regular Blu-ray so I doubt they'll be disappointed.

The format can't succeed with just attracting die hard videophiles it also has to use the right buzz words to be attractive to people who have a lot of disposable income. In the end I don't care why anyone buys the discs, more people supporting the format means more releases.

[42041]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

What are the chances that we could be heading into another format war? I personally think a few are sat far too content. Look at all the companies involved with HDR Philips and Dolby for two, I would not be surprised to see Ultra HD DVD vs Ultra HD Blu-ray at CES 2015. If there both not presented there I can still see which ever is a no show appearing later in the year even if one has launched in the meantime. I can also see PS5 and Xbox Two being the main battle ground at the rate there going at. I would laugh if Nintendo included a surprise contender in it's next console we could have a three way then, imagine that.

Lol, no. The only format war will be UHD vs. everything else that already exists.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

What are the chances that we could be heading into another format war?...

In 1970, there was a movie called "SUPPOSE THEY GAVE A WAR AND NOBODY CAME".

That pretty much sums up the chance of a format war. I'm not even sure Ultra HD BD will show up to the field of battle, let alone anyone else.

The "buzz" about UHD BD is pretty much non-existent and I sense that corporate enthusiasm is waning. I don't think there are a bunch of companies lining up to fight over a piece of this pie.

[Shin sam]

This is all very nice etc, but has anyone seen any film's in motion on a 4K pannel? I did at I.B.C and it was shocking to say the least. Picture break up all over the shop, and this was on major company stands!

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Shin sam

This is all very nice etc, but has anyone seen any film's in motion on a 4K pannel? I did at I.B.C and it was shocking to say the least. Picture break up all over the shop, and this was on major company stands!

It will have been streamed, from what I have heard no one had actual content on a Ultra HD Blu-Ray disc playing.

There was one TV I saw 4K on years ago or was it 8K at gadget show Christmas 2013 I think it was at London's Excel centre, that TV had a weird effect going, pixels seemed to dissipate.

[Shin sam]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

It will have been streamed, from what I have heard no one had actual content on a Ultra HD Blu-Ray disc playing.

There was one TV I saw 4K on years ago or was it 8K at gadget show Christmas 2013 I think it was at London's Excel centre, that TV had a weird effect going, pixels seemed to dissipate.

I'm not sure how they were getting the feed, maybe a 4K file. The 8K stuff looked better but still had the motion artefacts. The only thing about 4 and 8K that was good were the colours. Boy do they jump out at ya!