Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[infiniteCR]

If the HDR is what creates such extra images and details, wouldn't changing the UHD bluray to SDR with the player get rid of those details?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by infiniteCR

If the HDR is what creates such extra images and details, wouldn't changing the UHD bluray to SDR with the player get rid of those details?

Even though the player remaps HDR to SDR on SDR TVs, it still retains the extra detail encoded on the disc. How much of that extra light detail comes through depends on how much nit capacity the SDR TV has. The SDR conversion doesn't mean the highlights and lowlights aren't there anymore. The remapping has to do with the colors, not necessarily the luminosity (although in most cases the SDR TV will be dimmer).

[FilmFreakosaurus]

It's been noted that the Samsung UHD Blu-ray player doesn't do a good job of converting HDR source material to SDR for those without HDR displays.

It'll be interesting to see what the Philips and Panasonic can accomplish.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

It's been noted that the Samsung UHD Blu-ray player doesn't do a good job of converting HDR source material to SDR for those without HDR displays.

It'll be interesting to see what the Philips and Panasonic can accomplish.

To be fair, I don't think any of the HDR encodes were created with an SDR conversion in mind. Hopefully future players will do a much better job, but that remains to be seen.

[infiniteCR]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Even though the player remaps HDR to SDR on SDR TVs, it still retains the extra detail encoded on the disc. How much of that extra light detail comes through depends on how much nit capacity the SDR TV has. The SDR conversion doesn't mean the highlights and lowlights aren't there anymore. The remapping has to do with the colors, not necessarily the luminosity (although in most cases the SDR TV will be dimmer).

In another thread here I was told SDR means 100 nits and HDR means 1k nits and that the 1k made details never before possible now possible. So that means the luminosity would change for a remap to SDR and those details now impossible again, no??

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by infiniteCR

In another thread here I was told SDR means 100 nits and HDR means 1k nits and that the 1k made details never before possible now possible. So that means the luminosity would change for a remap to SDR and those details now impossible again, no??

Yeah, so actually even though it's called 'SDR', you're still getting some of the benefits of HDR. If the SDR TV is capable of more than 100 nits then it'll give it all it has, and if the color gamut extends past rec 709, then that will benefit it too. So call it a hybrid HDR/SDR if you will.

[ArnieCunningham]

The Exorcist the beginning.

[pawel86ck]

As for the sun in Mad Max, that's not simply the BD clipping it out because it's rubbish, it's been purposely graded that way.

Geoff D@ Of course mad max was graded that way, but are you suggesting it was possible to grade BD (bt709, so with 100cd/m2 max) better in order to see that sun so clearly as in UHD? I think it could be possible, but entire sky must have been very dark, in order to create tonal space for the bright sun conturs. With HDR it was possible to have both, bright sky, and brigh sun perfectly visible at the same time (no need for compromises)

As for BD vs UHD photos you cant make perfectly accurate comparison, beacuse you cant display nothing above SDR on SDR display. I think people who make comparisons like that need to similate that effect (tweak SDR somehow, maybe compress tonal range even more) in order to ilustrate HDR on SDR photo. And BTW. comparison photos on that site are acompanied with notes from this tech guy, who made that comparison. He wrote what he was seeing in person, and relate to his comparion photos. I think based on his comparsion and explanations like that people should know what to expect from HDR, but of course anyone should see HDR in person in order to appreciate that differences

[Geoff D]

I'm not disputing what he's seeing with HDR, and I won't dream of telling him/you/everyone else what they're seeing or not seeing in HDR because I haven't got my own frame of reference. But I DO have a properly calibrated 100 nit SDR reference and there is no way in hell that Smurfs 2 looks as blown out as that on the SDR Blu-ray.

As for Mad Max, we'll see what happens when I get my player. I'll do a comparison of that scene on the Blu-ray and then the SDR-converted UHD played back at the same 100 nit level, see if that sun magically becomes blown out or not.

[pawel86ck]

As for Mad Max, we'll see what happens when I get my player. I'll do a comparison of that scene on the Blu-ray and then the SDR-converted UHD played back at the same 100 nit level, see if that sun magically becomes blown out or not.

Great GeoffD, so I'm waiting for your impressions .... but when you will get your UHD player?

[Geoff D]

Hopefully in the next couple of weeks...hopefully!

[vincentric]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'll do a comparison of that scene on the Blu-ray and then the SDR-converted UHD played back at the same 100 nit level, see if that sun magically becomes blown out or not.

That will be an interesting comparison.

I tried taking a BD SDR v UHD HDR camera comparison of that Mad Max sun last month (around the same time I posted that Last Witch Hunter impression) but results were less than mediocre.

[Geoff D]

Less than mediocre? Immortan Joe would not have been impressed, no sir.

[vincentric]

Yes, no Valhalla for my camera.

[Geoff D]

I'll do what I can with my camera, it's nothing fancy but I think I'll be able to get some photos that adequately capture what I'm seeing: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...8#post11937418

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by infiniteCR

If the HDR is what creates such extra images and details, wouldn't changing the UHD bluray to SDR with the player get rid of those details?

HDR having more contrast and luminance with highlights going beyond the "cap" of SDR, lets you see more detail on those highlights which before would be either darkened, flattened or outright clipped in SDR.

Which is similar to what a Player changing it to SDR will have to do. The Samsung has in the User setting a range for brightness and contrast where this can be tweaked somewhat. I suppose the other players will have similar or more sophisticated controls . And of course having an SDR TV with inherent high contrast helps.

As analogy, SDR could be like brickwalling of music peaks to fit music into a narrower dynamic range.

Now it is not that we need 70thousand candleburnings per square rod to enjoy a movie, you can dim the TV(if the HDR-we control-the vertical lets you!) and watch in darkness and enjoy, but the extra highlight detail still there makes it more realistic. Not only because they look more lifelike, but because highlights specially specular ones give the impresion of more sharpness without changing the sharpness in the image itself. In a book I think called "Image Clarity" the author mentioned the importance of preserving specular highlights in a photographic image and gave an example where the same photo side by side had its specular highlights removed and yeah it looked less sharp and it was the same photo.

[Geoff D]

My 6-year-old Panasonic player has tweaks for brightness, gamma, colour, sharpness, noise reduction etc etc, that's nothing new Deci and is somewhat independent of the SDR transform inside the Samsung. This is why the Panasonic UHD player (which has those same tweaks and more!) has a slider for adjusting the brightness of the SDR transform specifically.

[Deciazulado]

Yes but your 6year old Panasonic was adjusting an SDR image within an SDR space so that's no problem. If you put an HDR image within an SDR space you either have to dim it (darken it so whites look grey), flatten it (make 20 stops fit into 10, making it grey), bend it (change it's curve, in this case flattening the highlights seems more appropiate, like the "knee" function in a camera, but that's what most colorist would have done on the Blu too) or just chop off it's "head" (discard most everything above white if you want whites to still be whites). Hopefully the players' adjustments and the automatic curve they have are good enough to make a presentable enjoyable image. But if auto-algos were that good, you wouldn't need much out of a colorist. Or HDR.

[infiniteCR]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm not disputing what he's seeing with HDR, and I won't dream of telling him/you/everyone else what they're seeing or not seeing in HDR because I haven't got my own frame of reference. But I DO have a properly calibrated 100 nit SDR reference and there is no way in hell that Smurfs 2 looks as blown out as that on the SDR Blu-ray.

As for Mad Max, we'll see what happens when I get my player. I'll do a comparison of that scene on the Blu-ray and then the SDR-converted UHD played back at the same 100 nit level, see if that sun magically becomes blown out or not.

It would be great to have someone who knows so much of these things doing this for us!


Also thank you Decialuzado for your explanation. I think I understand the general idea you are trying to tell me, that SDR remapping will make you lose somethings. Maybe the Sun will disappear!

[Deciazulado]

Nah, it'll just blind you.

don't look at the sun, son. It'll blind you.jpg