Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Here is my shot on converting from HDR ot SDR with custom S-Curve.

The top image is HDR.
Middle HDR->SDR by Blu-ray.com
My try HDR->SDR with custom S-Curve.



The conversion from HDR to SDR can be done much more gracefully and retain the HDR information instead clip it, yet still make it look natural.
Put some effort into it Blu-ray.com don't just move the slider down.

In reality, on an HDR monitor, the sun bursting though the clouds on the HDR pic would be 10 times brighter than on the HDR to SDR picture you see on the computer screen and still retain the cloud/highlight detail that's obviously there. The HDR to SDR picture can't covey that brightness, but just gives you a hint of that bursting brightness. Then your SDR S curved picture's (or the Blu-ray one's) highlights looks fine on SDR monitor but doesn't convey that bursting brightness which was the idea. Just looks like the Blu-ray. When the S one (or Blu-ray) is put against the HDR in HDR it will look dim in the highlights (if calibrated properly, 10 times dimmer) while the HDR to SDR will look normal but without the additional extended highlight detail. Right now trying to see the brightness and magnitude of HDR contrast in a SDR monitor is like trying to see infrared with eyes.

Bruceames could take the HDR and plug it into his Sony's , and if he can manually turn on the HDR EOTF for still images he'd see it in full glory.

[dvdmike]

Sony sets can't use video modes for images thru the album app

[James Freeman]

I don't thing one can manually trigger HDR EOTF (ST.2084), it has to come from the metadata of the HEVC video stream.

If one could find a x265 encoder software, make a video from the picture and encode with custom HDR metadata, REC.2020 and ST.2084 EOTF, it would be good for testing.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I already tried. It just doesn't work like that. The pictures need to be embedded with hdr metadata to trigger the tvs ability to display hdr.

Yes. And the TV read it. So, a solution/software/format/HDR TV for doing that right now for still images? If there isn't one now, there will be at one point. Imagine all those HDR baby / wedding / vacation pictures from phones displaying in your giant 4K TV "Wall hung Painting".

I asked about this in another 4K thread a while ago.



There might be a device for that...

[pawel86ck]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I already tried. It just doesn't work like that. The pictures need to be embedded with hdr metadata to trigger the tvs ability to display hdr.

But it's possible that in the future tv manufactures will include firmware update or something, that will enable people to see HDR pictures?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

I don't thing one can manually trigger HDR EOTF (ST.2084), it has to come from the metadata of the HEVC video stream.

If one could find a x265 encoder software, make a video from the picture and encode with custom HDR metadata, REC.2020 and ST.2084 EOTF, it would be good for testing.

That might work, tho right now I think these are just in rec.709 color. A slide show.. Get working on it Freeman

[pawel86ck]

So if it's not possible to watch screenshots with HDR, so maybe film studios will provide more UHD demos (right now we have Lego the movie, mad max, exodus, and life of pi trailer in 4K with HDR)

[James Freeman]

And this new one: http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Yes. And the TV read it. So, a solution/software/format/HDR TV for doing that right now for still images? If there isn't one now, there will be at one point. Imagine all those HDR baby / wedding / vacation pictures from phones displaying in your giant 4K TV "Wall hung Painting".

I asked about this in another 4K thread a while ago.

Hdr mode on a camera is different. It's not smpte graded, its completely different.

There might be a device for that...

Originally Posted by pawel86ck

But it's possible that in the future tv manufactures will include firmware update or something, that will enable people to see HDR pictures?

The problem isn't the tv, its the picture itself. There's no actual data in the picture.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

And this new one: http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

That 1 looks great. They have a full sdr version too and I watched both on my hdr tv. The hdr version is richer, has better dimension to all objects and is just more real looking.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Is interesting how the most effort is in criticizing and evaluating what is really a reduced straight conversion (so a placeholder for the real thing) from a higher quality format to a lower quality format, and in trying to horsehoe down the HDR image into looking best in SDR, eliminating the HDR, and not being interested in getting HDR. I see this every time a format changes. The Blu-ray has already done the best conversion/SDR representation thought by the original content producers. (I guess when P3 colors or 2020 ones are despicted too wild we'll have to desaturate then too)

Okay. But for the sizeable proportion of 4K owners out there who don't have an HDR TV and won't be updating any time soon (for reasons other than "not being interested in HDR", it's not all about the tin foil hat brigade) then the question of the SDR conversion is still very much a hot topic. It's been on my mind from the very moment I heard about this HDR malarkey and I'd like to know if it's been done as best as it can be inside the current players, so I hope we see more comparisons done in the days and weeks and months to come.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hah! Now you really have been drinking too much of the HDR Kool-Aid, I think.

Some days I feel like I know what I'm talking about. Others, not so much.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Some days I feel like I know what I'm talking about. Others, not so much.

Join the club mate. We're all just along for the ride.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Okay. But for the sizeable proportion of 4K owners out there who don't have an HDR TV and won't be updating any time soon (for reasons other than "not being interested in HDR", it's not all about the tin foil hat brigade) then the question of the SDR conversion is still very much a hot topic. It's been on my mind from the very moment I heard about this HDR malarkey and I'd like to know if it's been done as best as it can be inside the current players, so I hope we see more comparisons done in the days and weeks and months to come.

Well as you can see from the various "iterations", including James', the image can look quite similar to the SDR Blu-rays and be in 4K, which is what you wondered about. Since it's a different grading it probably will not be exact = to the BD. and it shouldn't be. But within the SDR tones seems similar enough



If you're concerned bout the "clipping" for example I know you can dim down the highlights in player settings/modes till they'd don't clip (but look dimmer, so I guess if you can then make the backlight of the TV britgher etc.) instead of this more or less straight conversion (I think totally straight would be if you put 100 nits = 100% but then it'd be more clipping!)

Now some of the various modes in different players might have a massaged S curve, but then that really would be a testing of each of the players and their modes, settings conbinations, how each does the images when not in native, etc:
Player S Torch mode,
Player S Movie mode,
Player S USER mode with brightness X contrast Y, color C,
Player S USER with brightness +X, Contrast - Y, Color +CCCCCC,
Player P Torch mode,
Player P Movie mode,
Player P USER mode with brightness X contrast Y, color C,
Player P USER with brightness +X, Contrast - Y, Color +CCCCCC,
Player O Torch mode,
Player O Movie mode,
Player O USER mode with brightness X contrast Y, color C,
Player O USER with brightness +X, Contrast - Y, Color +CCCCCC.
and so forth,
if you catch my drift

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by 42041

The supposed reference UHD disc is up in 4K too:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-S...7/#Screenshots

I'm kind of surprised at how shoddy these releases look close-up (assuming these screenshots are captured correctly). Smurfs 2 is a 4K DI from the Sony F65, no? That camera's oversampled 4K is no joke.

I have a hard time just looking at those top pictures due to all the disgusting green/magenta banding/rogue colors. I sincerely hope those were just manipulated afterwards from 8-bit captures and are not representative of what actual HDR->SDR playback looks like...

On the plus side I'm pleasantly surprised by the compression and grain retention.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Welcome back Oliver K (from Germany), long time no see.

Good to see you, too, it's been some time

Got to check out a bit of that 4k or should I say HDR discussion. Not that much 4k to discuss so far from what I saw myself but HDR is always good for some heated discussion...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by pawel86ck

So if it's not possible to watch screenshots with HDR....

Histograms of the graded content can sometimes be provided….

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

if you catch my drift

It's all easier said than done, Deci. Heaven forbid we'll actually see a SDR conversion bake-off between the separate players someday.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Good to see you, too, it's been some time

Got to check out a bit of that 4k or should I say HDR discussion. Not that much 4k to discuss so far from what I saw myself but HDR is always good for some heated discussion...

I post a quick teaser pic in the 4K Movies Releases thread for you now.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I post a quick teaser pic in the 4K Movies Releases thread for you now.

4k and HDR and 120 Hz? Sounds like Sony is in overkill mode for this one