Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

One of the displays not being calibrated properly would be my guess.

I'm using the commonly recommended Expert 1 and Cinema Pro on my Sony. Color is 56/100. Brightness (backlight) is maximum. Live Color is off. Contrast is at 90, I believe. Extended Dynamic Range is off and turns to maximum automatically in HDR mode. So the settings are fine. It's madVR.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

I'm using the commonly recommended Expert 1 and Cinema Pro on my Sony. Color is 56/100. Brightness (backlight) is maximum. Live Color is off. Contrast is at 90, I believe. Extended Dynamic Range is off and turns to maximum automatically in HDR mode. So the settings are fine. It's madVR.

So you're using madVR on the Sony TV?

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

So you're using madVR on the Sony TV?

Yes. I assume that this is just how it looks before my TV (or monitor) manipulates the image. But if we're showing off screenshots that are supposed to be accurate, then they should reflect "reference" settings or whatever you call 'em.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Yes. I assume that this is just how it looks before my TV (or monitor) manipulates the image. But if we're showing off screenshots that are supposed to be accurate, then they should reflect "reference" settings or whatever you call 'em.

I would honestly play around with your settings on madVR and see what happens. Sometimes trial and error works wonders.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I would honestly play around with your settings on madVR and see what happens. Sometimes trial and error works wonders.

I just realized that photos, flawed as they are because of exposure issues and other factors, may actually be more accurate representations than screenshots. If I try to make madVR match my TV's colors, then the TV will make the videos look even more colorful and bright. TOO colorful and bright. Viewing that screenshot on my TV doesn't bring the color back. Only playing the video brings it back.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

I just realized that photos, flawed as they are because of exposure issues and other factors, may actually be more accurate representations than screenshots.

Nah.

I don't own the Arrow BD your screenshot is coming from (nor any other version of the movie), but from the look of it, I guess your screenshot is right and your photos totally off. If your screenshot looks different on the same monitor than watching the movie to you, you're doing sth wrong, but I don't know what it is - BD screenshot and movie should look exactly the same (on the same display).

HDR screeshots can be a problem, yes, but SDR/BD really isn't a problem at all. So from what I am seeing, I think if anything, you might want to check why your TV looks different than the cap. (again, assuming that the cap is right)

One thing you can do wrong with PC to TV is not switching to the limited TV levels (16-235). TV levels on a PC monitor will give you milky, PC levels on a TV will give you crushed blacks. But that doesn't explain the difference your photos are suggesting. This looks more like wrong colour temperature or sth to me. (which might be the camera, but you said it's not the camera, hence no idea)

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Nah.

I don't own the Arrow BD your screenshot is coming from (nor any other version of the movie), but from the look of it, I guess your screenshot is right and your photos totally off. If your screenshot looks different on the same monitor than watching the movie to you, you're doing sth wrong, but I don't know what it is - BD screenshot and movie should look exactly the same (on the same display).

I was hallucinating. The screenshot (left) and video (right) look the same. It wouldn't even make sense.

HDR screeshots can be a problem, yes

Yeah, one thing I dislike about taking 4K screenshots is that it's impossible for me to show someone how dark a scene is. I wanted to show some people that Escape from New York is the darkest movie I own, that the black of night is lovely. But the SDR screenshots brightened the blacks, so I didn't bother.

but SDR/BD really isn't a problem at all. So from what I am seeing, I think if anything, you might want to check why your TV looks different than the cap. (again, assuming that the cap is right)

It was the camera. I took these photos for someone on another forum who said monitor and TV colors are the same, explaining to him that TV manufacturers like to make their pictures look more vivid (filmic) and that it's impossible for me to match my monitor's colors to my TV's with the settings in the UI. But in doing that I concentrated too much on the photos.

One thing you can do wrong with PC to TV is not switching to the limited TV levels (16-235). TV levels on a PC monitor will give you milky, PC levels on a TV will give you crushed blacks. But that doesn't explain the difference your photos are suggesting. This looks more like wrong colour temperature or sth to me. (which might be the camera, but you said it's not the camera, hence no idea)

TV levels in madVR? When I use TV levels, my black bars become grey and the picture becomes less colorful. Geoff D told me (on my old account) that it's better to use PC levels when using a computer connected to a TV. His explanation was logical.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Different situation when watching via internal software/hardware on a PC. As weird as this sounds, you want the opposite to what a player does when watching stuff on a computah. Why? Because, as the very name of 'PC levels' alludes to, full range (0-255 for 8-bit, 0-1023 for 10-bit etc) is what computers natively operate at, so when you watch 'Limited/ Video' levels content on such a device it automatically maps the 16-235 levels to the 0-255 of the display. If you then force 16-235 levels onto it you're raising the black level (making it brighter) by 16 points which is what makes it look so washed out, as is easily demonstrable with the black bars that are now grey.

These are the screenshots that he was talking about.

[Show spoiler]
TV levels:


PC levels:


TV levels showing grey bars:


PC levels:

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

TV levels in madVR?

Yes, when connecting to a TV. Not when connecting to a PC monitor (or for taking caps). You were talking about both TV and monitor.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Yes, when connecting to a TV. Not when connecting to a PC monitor (or for taking caps). You were talking about both TV and monitor.

Seems like it would make more sense to use PC levels for both TVs and monitors on a computer. The TV will use the 16-235 of the full 0-255 available in Windows/madVR, as Geoff said. I wasn't talking about Blu-ray players or other devices. Using TV levels in madVR with my TV washes out my colors and raises the blacks.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Seems like it would make more sense to use PC levels for both TVs and monitors on a computer. The TV will use the 16-235 of the full 0-255 available in Windows/madVR, as Geoff said. I wasn't talking about Blu-ray players or other devices. Using TV levels in madVR with my TV washes out my colors and raises the blacks.

It doesn't depend on the computer, it depends on the display. The computer has this setting because of that. TV levels are for TVs. If there are also TVs today that handle PC levels I do not know, because I don't own a TV. (as in my last TV was a CRT) (EDIT: Going by your description how your TV behaves with limited suggests that it does support full.)

And I wasn't talking about Blu-ray players either.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

When you can still see the blocking in the fookin thumbnails you know it's bad, lol

I can't even see the thumbnails, just andreasy969's text.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

TV levels in madVR? When I use TV levels, my black bars become grey and the picture becomes less colorful. Geoff D told me (on my old account) that it's better to use PC levels when using a computer connected to a TV. His explanation was logical.

I'd imagine that you might have to change your display's HDMI Level to accommodate that change. You can crush or elevate the black levels with the wrong setting if it doesn't match.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by chip75

I'd imagine that you might have to change your display's HDMI Level to accommodate that change. You can crush or elevate the black levels with the wrong setting if it doesn't match.

Yup. By default TVs expect TV level. I guess you'll have to switch your TV to "PC" or sth to display 'full' properly and have the TV behave like a monitor. (Which I'm sure is a thing for gaming alone nowadays.) And Geoff was talking about PC only/said the exact same thing, i.e. how to fix the milky caps on the PC.


re. the the images: As I said, it's the ssl cert. Noticed that they fixed one server by now and I guess the others will follow, so the pics should be back sooner or later.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by chip75

I'd imagine that you might have to change your display's HDMI Level to accommodate that change. You can crush or elevate the black levels with the wrong setting if it doesn't match.

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Yup. By default TVs expect TV level. I guess you'll have to switch your TV to "PC" or sth to display 'full' properly and have the TV behave like a monitor. (Which I'm sure is a thing for gaming alone nowadays.)

I'm using HDMI Enhanced or whatever it's called in the Sony settings, if it makes any difference. (I don't think it does.) I see no elevated blacks. I don't believe there are any crushed blacks either. My rips look pretty much the same as the discs I play in my player, which is set to the limited color range.

And Geoff was talking about PC only/said the exact same thing, i.e. how to fix the milky caps on the PC.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Geoff told me to keep doing what I was doing. The screenshots with PC levels look better.

PC levels:



TV levels, again showing grey bars:



Gonna have to go with Geoff on this.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

That's right.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

That's right.

No, you're not making sense. Check the conversation and you'll see that Geoff and I were talking about PC (connected to a TV) only. I talked about PC only here as well. Yet, you say, "Geoff was talking about PC only." What? He said computers natively operate at PC levels and that videos with 16-235 only map that to the 0-255 display, so switching madVR to limited raises the colors 16 points. I don't think the Sony 900e even has an option for 16-235.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

No, you're not making sense. Check the conversation and you'll see that Geoff and I were talking about PC (connected to a TV) only. I talked about PC only here as well. Yet, you say, "Geoff was talking about PC only." What? He said computers natively operate at PC levels and that videos with 16-235 only map that to the 0-255 display, so switching madVR to limited raises the colors 16 points. I don't think the Sony 900e even has an option for 16-235.

So Sony 900e is a PC monitor, eh? And Geoff was not referring to your milky caps, eh?

I'll just leave this here for you to read:

[Show spoiler]
Option 1:

If you just connect an HDMI cable from PC to TV, chances are you'll end up with a signal path like this:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (Display) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the 16-235 source to full range RGB and it is converted back to 16-235 by the graphics card. Expanding the source prevents the GPU from clipping the levels when outputting 16-235. Both videos and the desktop will look accurate. However, it is possible to introduce banding if the GPU fails to use dithering when compressing 0-255 to 16-235. The range is converted twice: by madVR and the GPU.

This option isn’t recommended because of the range compression by the GPU and should only be used if no other suitable option is possible.

If your graphics card doesn't allow for a full range setting (like many Intel iGPUs or older Nvidia cards), then this may be your only choice. If so, it may be worth running madLevelsTweaker.exe in the madVR installation folder to see if you can force full range output from the GPU.

Option 2:

If your PC is a dedicated HTPC, you might consider this approach:

(madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (media front-end) Use limited color range (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (Display) Output as RGB 16-235

In this configuration, the signal remains 16-235 all the way to the display. A GPU set to 0-255 will passthrough all output from the media player without clipping the levels. If a media front-end is used, it should also be configured to use 16-235 to match the media player.

When set to 16-235, madVR does not clip Blacker-than-Black (0-15) and Whiter-than-White (236-255) if the source video includes these values. Black and white clipping patterns should be used to adjust brightness and contrast until 16-235 are the only visible bars.

This can be the best option for GPUs that output full range to a display that only accepts limited range RGB. Banding should not occur as madVR handles the only conversion (YCbCr -> RGB) and the GPU is bypassed. However, the desktop and other applications will output incorrect levels. PC applications render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects 16,16,16. The result is crushed blacks. This sacrifice improves the quality of the video player at the expense of all other computing.

Option 3:

A final option involves setting all sources to full range — identical to a traditional PC and computer monitor:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (Display) Output as RGB 0-255

madVR expands 16-235 to 0-255 and it is presented in full range by the display. The display's HDMI black level must be toggled to display full range RGB (Set to High or Normal (0-255) vs. Low (16-235)).

When expanding 16-235 to 0-255, madVR clips both 0-15 and 236-255, as reference black, 16, is mapped to 0, and reference white, 235, is mapped to 255. Clipping both BtB and WtW is acceptable as long as a correct grayscale is maintained. The use of black and white clipping patterns can confirm video levels (16-235) are displayed accurately.

This is usually the optimal setting for those with displays and GPUs supporting full range output (the majority of users). Both videos and the desktop will look correct and banding is unlikely as madVR handles the only required conversion. A PC must already convert from a video color space (YCbCr) to a PC color space (RGB), so the conversion of 16-235 to 0-255 is simply done with a YCbCr -> RGB conversion matrix that converts directly from limited range YCbCr to full range RGB. No additional scaling step is necessary.

source: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...942#pid2238942

[Warm Gun]

This is usually the optimal setting for those with displays and GPUs supporting full range output (the majority of users).

Okay, good. As I thought.

I found the HDMI video range setting that you were both talking about. The Auto (which I've always been using) and Full settings look identical, while the Limited option makes the picture darker, so it seems it's always been expanding to the GPU's full video range. So thanks for clarifying if you thought my TV was set to Limited.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Okay, good. As I thought.

I found the HDMI video range setting that you were both talking about. The Auto (which I've always been using) and Full settings look identical, while the Limited option makes the picture darker, so it seems it's always been expanding to the GPU's full video range. So thanks for clarifying if you thought my TV was set to Limited.

Yes, that's what I (we I guess) thought was an option. So thanks for taking the time to read and try to understand what I was saying. And yes, you're running option #3 then, hence full is fine/best.

We still don't know the answer to your initial question, but at least we're on the same page re. the range now (which wasn't the issue though).

[chip75]

The output device and the display basically need to be set to the same thing, otherwise you'll raise or crush detail (if you've set brightness/contrast correctly before adding new equipment). I think Sony label it as HDMI video range, Samsung call it HDMI Black Level and so on. The HDMI Enhanced setting pertains to expanded the bandwidth for the HDMI connection from 1.4 to 2.0 or whatever.