HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And editor’s lounges with ‘professional’ panels. I think y’all know I am not a real big fan of 8K without a compensatory increase in temporal resolution, better yet 100/120 fps with 4K HDR WCG is where the industry should be applying their efforts rather than pushing resolution, but with regards to 8K rez and visual acuity (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post16400080 ), this is plain nonsense -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhCcZa2yGWQ#t=38m56s

not to mention other idiocy stated later in that meetup.

That dude looks just like Dale Dye.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That dude looks just like Dale Dye.

He’s been anti-4K for years. What’s disappointing is that the audience of professional editors and the moderator appeared to wholeheartedly accept some of his *statements* as facts…..when they’re not.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

He’s been anti-4K for years. What’s disappointing is that the audience of professional editors and the moderator appeared to wholeheartedly accept some of his *statements* as facts…..when they’re not.

He does still kinda like HDR tho, or am I wrong? Wasn't the mantra always not just moar pixels but bettah pixels? I mean, I like them 4K pixels a lot but I like them HDR pixels even morer.

[Penton-Man]

Mark - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D1JlbQdY90#t=39m37s , to answer your glib question – quicker access to a specialist who is more expert in diagnosing the cause and significance of your pain than perhaps the heath care provider/facility you’ve visited in a rural location, see 2. Expanding telemedicine
– https://www.business.att.com/learn/u...-industry.html

also, google micro hospitals and 5G.

P.S.
I like the new T-shirt.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

He does still kinda like HDR tho, or am I wrong? Wasn't the mantra always not just moar pixels but bettah pixels? I mean, I like them 4K pixels a lot but I like them HDR pixels even morer.

You’re not wrong, yes, Terence does like HDR, so he’s got that part right for which he should get some credit.

Nevertheless, these days most find value with the option of having HDR in their creative toolbox – even professional colorists on forums, message boards, etc. who once publicly made fun of it and once claimed such things as it was a gimmick to such hyperbole that they’d get ‘burned retinas’ by grading with it…..all....have since embraced HDR. At this point it’s become fashionable to like HDR, but it wasn’t, except to the most knowledgeable with regards to image quality back in 2014 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ar#post9754213

[Geoff D]

I was extremely sceptical about it, being loathe to update my 4K TV at that point and so I was more concerned about how SDR conversion would shake down more than anything. But in a way it's all worked out as my reticence meant that I held out for as long as I could for buying a new TV, so when I took the plunge I bought the best I could possibly afford (though having three grand burning a hole in your pocket helps) and two years later the ZD9 is still wowing me, as is HDR itself.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Stacey, any update as to the expected date of the public offering of your disc?

The check discs arrived on Friday. We should sign off this week. Discs should be available 2-3 weeks later. (Shipping from Europe)

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

The check discs arrived on Friday. We should sign off this week. Discs should be available 2-3 weeks later. (Shipping from Europe)

Stacey, will Amazon (USA) have these for sale? If not, what outlets will you use?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

So the deliverables are just what Netflix receives from production, in RGB 4:4:4 Full Range P3 D65 before it is encoded to 4:2:0 color space.

Marvel Avengers Infinity War has big differences visually in my opinion, between the DV and HDR10. One obvious aspect is APL, the movie is just brighter with the Vudu DV stream and there is better color.

Is this just DV?

What you describe seems pretty common for a deliverable. I provided RGB 4:4:4 Full Range BT.2020 TIFFs to Pixelogic, for example.

Nothing that would make DV brighter per say. Now, DV can appear brighter if the ST2086 metadata is high. e.g. There is a sharpness pattern on the disc. It is the same actual pattern for all versions. (600, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 10000 cd/m^2). On a 2017 LG (B7 in this case) As you go from 600 to 10000, the image gets darker and darker as the tone mapping starts sooner and sooner to preserve more highlight info. On the C8 and C9, overall brightness does not change. Same thing on the HDR montage. If you play the HDR10 10K version, the image is darker overall. If you play the DV version, it is not darker overall as the dynamic metadata does a nice job. In this case, both are the exact same 10K content. There is a shot I use, which I think is chapter 2 or 3, with a fence post in the snow. The fence post is very dark at the 10K HDR10, but much lighter, as it should be, in the DV version. As well as the pre-rendered DV versions in HDR10 at 1000 and 600.

With our tone mapping pattern, you can see how much highlight detail is retained at different nit levels as well as turning dynamic tone mapping on and off, if the display offers it. e.g. On the Z9D that I have, nothing goes above 1600 nits, ever, with default settings. You can actually pull contrast down and see more above then, which is dangerous. You should not be touching contrast or brightness on an HDR display in my opinion because the tone mapping in a display is often tuned around the default settings. On the B7, as the nit level goes up, the detail extends further. e.g. if you are at 4000, I don't believe the B7 keeps anything above 4000. This changed in the C8 and C9. At 10,000, you see lines all the way to the end.

Here are a couple of images of the tone mapping pattern that I sent to David, at CNET. https://uc5892172f82037e88fb761f561a...m4rA/file?dl=1

This was to show him what the ramp looks like on a WFM, especially the modulation portion in the middle. This modulation is what helps you see where it clips. These are in PQ, so they will look washed out on your computer monitor. The ramp, ramps in the shape of the PQ curve. Our normal stimulus and saturation ramps, ramp in a linear fashion. The ramp is converted to 8-bit for the WFM drawing. I need to update that at some point.

All of our ramps now have the modulation in them, except Cb and Cr ramps as well as the saturation ramps. Something else we do with the stimulus and saturation is we limit the entire ramp to roughly 10% area of the screen. This was so the tip of the ramp would be as bright as a window pattern that uses 10% area. We also use the proper labels for the stimulus ramps in terms of cd/m^2 levels. e.g. 940 for white is 10,000, but 940 for red is around 2627 and blue is around 593. This was to also educate. Only white goes to 10,000, blue can only go to 593 fully saturated. So when people ask why you want 10,000, its so you can have 593 nits of blue. On a 1000 nit display, blue can only go to 59 nits fully saturated.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Stacey, will Amazon (USA) have these for sale? If not, what outlets will you use?

Yes. The discs are simply replicated, and packaged, in Europe and then shipped to the US. This is new for BD100. Before April, you would replicate in the US and then package in Europe, assuming you used their service to package.

[Geoff D]

Stacey, will there be any European outlets selling the disc directly, rather than having it be replicated and packaged in Europe, sent to the US and then imported back over to Europe? I fully recognise that it's going to cost an arm and possibly a leg as well, I just don't want to sacrifice all my limbs to get it.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Yes. The discs are simply replicated, and packaged, in Europe and then shipped to the US. This is new for BD100. Before April, you would replicate in the US and then package in Europe, assuming you used their service to package.

Hi Stacey,

Can Canada expect it as well? Amazon.ca?

Thanks

[DisplayCalNoob]

@Stacey Spears What are thoughts on the sharpness? I plan on testing Sharpness when I have your patterns to test. My display is a Vizio P55-C1, increasing sharpness to 30, seems to increase detail without causing any visible artifacts at normal seating distances.

Am i still artificially over sharpening the image, or foes upscales leave room for play?

[Stacey Spears]

Geoff, Ross, the distributor I am using now has dealers all over, so you most likely will not need to import from the US. In the case of Canada, Amazon.ca for sure.

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Am i still artificially over sharpening the image, or foes upscales leave room for play?

There is no "standard" on how to implement a sharpness control. On some displays, 0 means off. On other displays, 0 means a negative sharpness or softening. Our sharpness pattern has some bursts that blend into the background on all four sides. As sharpness is turned up, they become more visible.

With that said, if you are happy with the extra sharpness, then do what makes you happy.

One of the clips is an HDR/SDR butterfly montage. 1000/100 nits. Many friends have argued that no one watches SDR at 100, so using 100 is not fair. I get their point. However, it was meant to be viewed at 100, so I think it is fair. I had done a 1000/200 version, which was going to be a hidden title, but we ran out of disc space. It was going to be hidden because it was a last minute addition and we would have had to update the menu, which is a pita that late in the game. The point of this is that some people are happy watching stuff not perfectly calibrated or calibrated and then tweaked to their taste.

[ROSS.T.G.]

I’m looking forward to picking it up when it’s released. I find the 2nd edition by far the best calibration disc on the market.

[Geoff D]

Heh, I watch SDR at a calibrated 100 nits, well, 140 but that's near enough what SMPTE recommend (120) for me to not lose any sleep over it. I do realise I'm one of the few loonies who watches SDR in this way and it's why I do the HDR/SDR comparisons that I do, it's a genuine level playing field between HDR as it's supposed to be and SDR as it's supposed to be.

Ditto for sharpness. I made the mistake of listening to some prattle from another poster about Sony badly oversharpening their processing and tried lowering the sharpness, I ended up with dreadful artefacts on some movies and even lowering the sharpness just five notches from the default 50 (which is effectively '0' for Sony sets) caused some mild aliasing. While I'm all for people setting stuff up the way that they like it, shirley a test disc & patterns are there so people can get it closer to the intent than not? S&M 2nd Ed is like my Bible, man.

[sapiendut]

Some TV is also weird. I set it to -1 I can see excessive artifacts but when I set it to -2 it becomes super blurry (using multiburst pattern)

I played with Spears and Munsil latest disc with Joe Silver and it’s amazing. Sooooo comprehensive and easy to use if you don’t have a pattern generator or if you want to set the player up.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh, I watch SDR at a calibrated 100 nits...

While I'm all for people setting stuff up the way that they like it, shirley a test disc & patterns are there so people can get it closer to the intent than not? S&M 2nd Ed is like my Bible, man.

I watch SDR with my display(s) calibrated to 100 nits too.

If you buy a calibration disc, I would hope its because you want to preserve artistic intent.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Some consider BT1886 to be a flawed concept due to the way it further lifts blacks on any display that has a black that is higher than zero. With a raised black you will get lifted shadows. This is one of the issues with BT1886, as the lifted shadows will cause the colorist to over compensate by grading the shadows darker.

The end result will be potentially crushed shadows/blacks when viewed on a display that is not calibrated to BT 1886, but has a lifted black point, as many consumer TVs have. Given that, best to use a standard 2.4 power law gamma instead.

For a deeper dive into grasping gammas, scroll down to conversation between Steve S. and Patrick I., here - https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...vinci-resolve/

Perfect! That's a really great answer thankyou!

[PaulGo]

Some competition for OLED TVs? This could be a game changer.

Hisense's ULED XD TVs: The OLED Alternative We've Been Waiting For?
Hisense is combining color and monochrome 4K LCDs into one TV to create OLED-like contrast. I saw a concept version of this ULED XD technology in action recently and it's impressive.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/368494/hi...eve-been-waiti

https://www.hisense-usa.com/ULED-TV