How much longer till we have 8k movies

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Japan have been working on 8K since HD days, so it’s not about manufacturers outdoing one another. Even at CES 8K was shown literally one year before 4K was released to the public.

Pretty soon, Japan will start working on 12K, 16K, 20k and so on. People will have to start using common sense, and don't get hoodwinked into buying such preposterous technology. 4K is more than enough. What are they going to do, start rebuying their movie collection in this alleged 8K now, just right after rebuying their movies in 4K? It doesn't make sense! If I was a multi-millionaire, I still wouldn't do it. Enough is enough!

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Japan have been working on 8K since HD days, so it’s not about manufacturers outdoing one another. Even at CES 8K was shown literally one year before 4K was released to the public.

That might be so, still its was a goal of the Japanese (NHK) back then to reclaim that technical mountain top when others had the jump on 4K that they lacked.

The OP still had the real question concerning whether we’re any closer to seeing widespread use or availability of 8K content. The fact that you have some early 8K capable displays doesn't change anything IMHO.

[TXMoviebuff77]

What about 16K? I mean how high can you go really before it just becomes a cash grab?

[sapiendut]

It’s not about the 8K itself. Although I still need 8k for my projection, I’m more interested that with 8K we will eventually have 12-bit display, 400 nits display, better upscaling, better compression scheme, 120 fps, and wider colour gamut. None of which is supported by the current 8k TV

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Fact of the matter remains that 95% of the common masses will never be able to support the purchase or spacing required for a screen that can truly utilize/benefit from 4K, let alone 8K, resolutions. 1080p looks pretty damn good on any screen less than 100”. The 4K difference (in price AND quality), won’t sway that 95% to jump on board given their living accommodations. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that 8K will be able to create a sustainable market. Perhaps some commercial applications could benefit from such tech, but the “personal use” market just won’t be worth the effort from a business perspective. Hell, even 4K has fragmented the market in such a way that that both 1080p and 4K are now suffering from a lack of appreciative growth. They won’t want to fragment that market any further... unless their ultimate goal is to frustrate consumers into going all internet/digital.

[sapiendut]

again, it’s not about the 8K resolution, but about the other stuff that 8K will bring.

[Kyle15]

I'm only really interested in 8k content as far as any existing 8k scans are concerned, which isn't a lot. For now 4k is perfectly fine.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

I believe that the content creators have had enough of trying to stay up with the TV manufacturers. TVs are now on a 5 year cycle for the "latest and greatest" which is way too short of a time period for the content creators. Sure - they will and have already embraced 8K cameras but as stated - strictly for down-sampling to 4K/2K. They are just getting a handle on 4K HDR/WCG. No way will they do another expensive upgrade to their workflow for at least another 10 years.

Japan decided long ago to skip over 4K and go right to 8K. If you want to see 8K content on an 8K TV . . . move to Japan. Bon Voyage!

Although I’ve heard that 4K adoption has been really slow in Japan. It’s my belief that most residents in Japan just don’t have the room for 65” and above panels and 8K will be pushing 75, 77, or 88” displays. So the size issue only gets worse. Except for the few in the one percent.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

In terms of Hollywood forever could be an option... There is no reason to go to 8K but there is benefit to MASTERING in 8K and then authoring to disc at 4K. Supersampled images are usually always better than native ones.

Movies have been scanned at 6K/8K to create 4K masters for years already on datacines like the Arriscan and Northlight II so we've been enjoying the benefits of such oversampling for a while now, and not just on 65mm (which is an 8K scan on a 11K sensor pretty much by default, as Imagica have cornered that particular large format market) but on 35mm too. In several cases the raw 8K scan data has been archived, I don't think that many 8K-scanned 35mm shows did that but I know for a fact it was done for Lawrence of Arabia.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

People had said the same about 4K and even 1080p.

They did indeed, but - as anti-4K'ers are so keen to point out - the leap from SD to HD was a bigger jump in terms of sheer resolution vs resolution than 2K to 4K, and when it comes to consumer 1080p vs consumer 2160p we've got these other goodies like HDR to make up for the potential lack of outright 4K resolution, and I don't just mean upscales either (look at some of the recent posts in the Alien and Die Hard 4K threads, people registering their disappointment that they don't blaze off of the screen like the average Sony joint despite them both being "true 4K" transfers).

But if 4K had been solely about the resolution update, with no HDR and WCG, then would I be as crazy about it as I am? I'd still have some skin in the game, it's what I do, but I wouldn't be as head over heels with it as I am with 4K + HDR. What's my point then? 8K as a source format doesn't offer any kind of improvement over existing HDR protocols, literally nothing new, so all it's going to bring is more resolution when we know that's only a smaller part of the puzzle - but even so, where's that actual 8K resolution gonna come from? A literal handful of old 65mm epics? Movies are STILL being routinely mastered to 2K, never mind 4K, and while streaming will forge ahead with 8K finishes the same situation is true of 4K now: streaming leads the way, but most people aren't buying 4K TVs to watch The Marvellous Mrs Maisel or whatever, you know?

For me, the jumps from SD to HD and then HD to UHD have come with enough improvements to make them truly worthwhile; the former was about more pixels, the latter is about better pixels, but with 8K we're back to more pixels again and those returns are rapidly diminishing, particularly within the bounds of conventional 24fps motion resolution which you can throw all the pixels in the world at but is still gonna bleed temporal information like crazy. I'm sorry, but I don't see this as anything other than the electronics industry reverting to its usual cynical self when it comes to general consumer applications for 8K. Not that they're operating a charity, I've willingly bought into all this stuff over the last 20 years with my eyes wide open, but this latest update really does smack of desperation.

In Japan the situation is a bit 'purer', for want of a better word, as they had HDTV while many people up in here - including myself - were still in short trousers (or hell, weren't even born) so naturally they've shifted up the gears and made sure that their infrastructure is place to deal with 8K when it comes, it's been mentioned before that they did an 8K test broadcast from the 2012 Olympics. But the rest of the world ain't Japan.

Originally Posted by sapiendut

again, it’s not about the 8K resolution, but about the other stuff that 8K will bring.

Yes...which are not mutually exclusive to 8K in any way, shape or form. You could put a finer pixel pitch, better backlighting, wider colour gamut, higher HDR luminance, AI upscaling etc etc etc into a 4K set just as easily as on a 8K set. The longer my ZD9 holds out then the more likely it is that my next TV will be an 8K set, but only because that's the way that the sands are shifting when it comes to production of larger panels, just as 4K has basically killed large-screen 1080p TVs stone dead.

[sapiendut]

I agree, but you won’t get that from a 4K TV. Manufacturers will offer that inly on 8K TV. Also 120 fps will never be available on 4K TV. The same goes with 12-bit panel and 12-bit colour.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Movies have been scanned at 6K/8K to create 4K masters for years already on datacines like the Arriscan and Northlight II so we've been enjoying the benefits of such oversampling for a while now, and not just on 65mm (which is an 8K scan on a 11K sensor pretty much by default, as Imagica have cornered that particular large format market) but on 35mm too. In several cases the raw 8K scan data has been archived, I don't think that many 8K-scanned 35mm shows did that but I know for a fact it was done for Lawrence of Arabia.


They did indeed, but - as anti-4K'ers are so keen to point out - the leap from SD to HD was a bigger jump in terms of sheer resolution vs resolution than 2K to 4K, and when it comes to consumer 1080p vs consumer 2160p we've got these other goodies like HDR to make up for the potential lack of outright 4K resolution, and I don't just mean upscales either (look at some of the recent posts in the Alien and Die Hard 4K threads, people registering their disappointment that they don't blaze off of the screen like the average Sony joint despite them both being "true 4K" transfers).

But if 4K had been solely about the resolution update, with no HDR and WCG, then would I be as crazy about it as I am? I'd still have some skin in the game, it's what I do, but I wouldn't be as head over heels with it as I am with 4K + HDR. What's my point then? 8K as a source format doesn't offer any kind of improvement over existing HDR protocols, literally nothing new, so all it's going to bring is more resolution when we know that's only a smaller part of the puzzle - but even so, where's that actual 8K resolution gonna come from? A literal handful of old 65mm epics? Movies are STILL being routinely mastered to 2K, never mind 4K, and while streaming will forge ahead with 8K finishes the same situation is true of 4K now: streaming leads the way, but most people aren't buying 4K TVs to watch The Marvellous Mrs Maisel or whatever, you know?

For me, the jumps from SD to HD and then HD to UHD have come with enough improvements to make them truly worthwhile; the former was about more pixels, the latter is about better pixels, but with 8K we're back to more pixels again and those returns are rapidly diminishing, particularly within the bounds of conventional 24fps motion resolution which you can throw all the pixels in the world at but is still gonna bleed temporal information like crazy. I'm sorry, but I don't see this as anything other than the electronics industry reverting to its usual cynical self when it comes to general consumer applications for 8K. Not that they're operating a charity, I've willingly bought into all this stuff over the last 20 years with my eyes wide open, but this latest update really does smack of desperation.

In Japan the situation is a bit 'purer', for want of a better word, as they had HDTV while many people up in here - including myself - were still in short trousers (or hell, weren't even born) so naturally they've shifted up the gears and made sure that their infrastructure is place to deal with 8K when it comes, it's been mentioned before that they did an 8K test broadcast from the 2012 Olympics. But the rest of the world ain't Japan.


Yes...which are not mutually exclusive to 8K in any way, shape or form. You could put a finer pixel pitch, better backlighting, wider colour gamut, higher HDR luminance, AI upscaling etc etc etc into a 4K set just as easily as on a 8K set. The longer my ZD9 holds out then the more likely it is that my next TV will be an 8K set, but only because that's the way that the sands are shifting when it comes to production of larger panels, just as 4K has basically killed large-screen 1080p TVs stone dead.

That is the thing about being an enthusiast - always wanting the very best even if incremental and then it becomes the normal at some point before something else is released. Does it ever end? Not sure. No doubt 8K will eventually sold with a sweeter package with the things you listed including full, true 100% rec 2020.

[Geoff D]

I know it's about small increments as well as big steps, I've upgraded for way less, but as it stands there is nothing about 8K *itself* that makes it a must-have for me. Whenever there's new tech about I always get a twitch down in my bathing suit area but with 8K I'm getting nathan, nada, nothing. There will be no 8K physical media and that's another reason why it means so little to me.

As for 100% of 2020 there's zero reason why a future 4K set couldn't do the same thing. Zero.

[Retroj23]

Yeah I don't see 8K taking off at all. It would be a niche of a niche of a niche. 4k could really be the final consumer physical media.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

That is the thing about being an enthusiast - always wanting the very best even if incremental and then it becomes the normal at some point before something else is released. Does it ever end? Not sure. No doubt 8K will eventually sold with a sweeter package with the things you listed including full, true 100% rec 2020.

If Moore's law can cease to be of any useful consequence as far as a device's computation capacity as computers no longer need to be faster and faster, so can simply increasing a display resolution without adding anything of useful consequence to the mix.

The two are quite related, your going around using electronics a lot more powerful than you can fully use for mobile or office, the same with watching 4K native content with HDR using dynamic metadata.

You have reached the point of diminishing returns. Yes 8K is a improvement but the real question is what does it present to the consumer that matters?

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I know it's about small increments as well as big steps, I've upgraded for way less, but as it stands there is nothing about 8K *itself* that makes it a must-have for me. Whenever there's new tech about I always get a twitch down in my bathing suit area but with 8K I'm getting nathan, nada, nothing. There will be no 8K physical media and that's another reason why it means so little to me.

As for 100% of 2020 there's zero reason why a future 4K set couldn't do the same thing. Zero.

Which is why they will have to offer 'something' more than just 8K. Maybe the first more readily available full 2020 display will be an 8K one along with other 'stuff' (I'm just using full 2020 as an example as there could be others). I don't think many care about sheer 8K resolution, so it will just be more about higher spec and improved display technology (8K as part of it).

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

If Moore's law can cease to be of any useful consequence as far as a device's computation capacity as computers no longer need to be faster and faster, so can simply increasing a display resolution without adding anything of useful consequence to the mix.

The two are quite related, your going around using electronics a lot more powerful than you can fully use for mobile or office, the same with watching 4K native content with HDR using dynamic metadata.

You have reached the point of diminishing returns. Yes 8K is a improvement but the real question is what does it present to the consumer that matters?

Well, in many years, if we ever get to high quality glasses free 3D on a large display, maybe it will matter more?

[jibucha]

picture quality & viewing enjoyment? (need it be more?)

Originally Posted by JohnAV

You have reached the point of diminishing returns. Yes 8K is a improvement but the real question is what does it present to the consumer that matters?

[jibucha]

8K - resolution (perhaps not, however 'i do care' & 'i do appreciate')

furthermore, as with 4K (arguments)-(no 4K, no HDR/WCG/10-bit/etc), without 8K, whatever 'improvements you refer to, they neither would emerge

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Which is why they will have to offer 'something' more than just 8K. Maybe the first more readily available full 2020 display will be an 8K one along with other 'stuff' (I'm just using full 2020 as an example as there could be others). I don't think many care about sheer 8K resolution, so it will just be more about higher spec and improved display technology (8K as part of it).

[jibucha]

8K :: My Fair Lady

• anyone fortunate enought to view it in 8K 'might just cry'
• those fortunate enough to 'see it' in 8K (Japan - or - otherwise) would 'cry reading these posts'
• why are you here, if the quality of a picture (movies-tv shows-etc) doesn't matter?
• perhaps (someday in the future, something will replace 8K) - same arguments/discussion?
• my bet, is that those that still support DVD are still saying the same about HD
• and, those that support HD are saying the same about UHD
• my question? :: if it doesnt matter, why are you reading any of this or thinking about any of it?
• yes, i look forward to 8K, if given the opportunity
• yes, 'resolution' would be enough, but i have confidence of 'far more' to be inclusive

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by jibucha

picture quality & viewing enjoyment? (need it be more?)

Increasing resolution to 8k doesn't equate to increased picture quality. Upscaling 4K to 8K is not performing anything magical. As Geoff a few posts back stated 8K is not bringing the same as we did when going from DVD to HD with greatly increased amount of picture information, the same for going to 4K with HDR/WCG including dynamic metadata.