4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Pieter V]

CES 2016: THX HDR & 4K UHD Blu-ray Technical Interview - YouTube

[David M]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

David, PLEASE ask about the downconversion aspects of the players if you can. HDR is all well and good but there are a LOT of legacy 4K owners out there who would love to know just how well the downconversion to SDR will be performed, whether it can retain the WCG, the bit depth etc.

I can kind of answer that now. Down converting HDR to legacy displays is a Mandatory part of the BD-FE/UHD BD spec. However it's up to the manufacturer to implement it as they see fit so I imagine in the early days, we'll see some quality variation here between players.

It's kind of at odds with regular BD where most players, at least with 1080p, were incredibly similar, or ideally, identical. There's more room to differentiate with this feature.

Samsung were demoing their player's ability to do this behind closed doors at CES.

[Geoff D]

Sure, I know it's there to begin with but as I said, it's how well it does it that I'm interested in. I guess that info won't come to light until people like yourself actually get them on your test bench and put them through their paces (and remember to test that aspect thoroughly in amongst the HDR hoopla ).

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No problem . Given your mindset at the time I think you have a good excuse as in that same post you said and bolded, no less…. “0.0005 to 540 nits is equivalent to a contrast ratio of over 1,000,000:1 (around 20 f-stops)”. Ray , me thinks you’re absolutely reveling in your blacks - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...o#post11121678


Excuse if for expediency sake I just read your excerpt.


So, I think cinephiles like mike, Geoff, etc. really do have a concern, no matter what’s been claimed….in essence to sell a product and make a profit.

I mean you’re talking about the entertainment business here, which is far less *regulated*

What I find ironic about that excerpt (if the reporting is accurate) is that in the past, BDA spokespersons have been reluctant to speak about much of anything specific regarding studio inner workings often coming out with "Ultimately that is question for the studios" and now all of sudden you have Panasonic Hollywood Labs speaking as to the motivations of the studios?

Actually, I had just started reading the new pre Game of Thrones George R.R. Martin book, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and my 75 year old brain decided that R. Martin was wrong in the post. That’s what happens when you multitask at my age. However, the .0005 vs .05 sparring we were engaged in earlier came to mind, and I thought, just for a minute, that the UHD Alliance took heed when they formulated the spec.

Regarding Hinton’s feedback on his off camera discussion with Ron Martin: I think it is reasonable to expect the studios and rights holders to be on their best behavior in the beginning. Honest mistakes will be made as they master the HDR learning curve, but the film purists need not worry. They will always be able to down convert their UHD BRs to SDR.

The real concern is with broadcast UHD HDR. Who will keep the adsters in check? I have a feeling many of us will be looking for the Down Convert to SDR button on our remotes, just as we used to mash the volume button on those intrusive “door bell” ads of yesteryear.

Perhaps the Scotts will show the way with their upcoming LG Super Bowl ad. You just know that ad will be graded for UHD Alliance Premium .0005 to 540 nit OLED spec. As DVDMIKE reminds us with every post, “The Scott Bros do no wrong” I know I’ll be looking for the UHD BR of that advertisement.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=562

http://www.adweek.com/news/advertisi...wl-spot-168682

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...sts-lgs-852192

[Geoff D]

They will be able to downconvert to SDR for legacy gear yes, but will that process be worth a damn as far as accuracy to intent is concerned? So I'm plenty worried Ray, thanks.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

They will be able to downconvert to SDR for legacy gear yes, but will that process be worth a damn as far as accuracy to intent is concerned? So I'm plenty worried Ray, thanks.

I would hope that downconversion to SDR is an option for the latest and greatest as well as legacy. If not, the combo packs have a BD for HDR unimpressed.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

CES 2016: THX HDR & 4K UHD Blu-ray Technical Interview - YouTube

Wow! Panasonic UHD THX certified OLED "massively oversold" More models to come, but when?

The implication made in that video was that THX certification is more stringent than the UHD Alliance Premium Certification. How and where does it differ in terms of the UHD Alliance contrast spec for OLED and LCD? Where are the THX specs for UHD HDR? Are we going to see THX UHD HDR logos on UHD BR content as well as hardware?

Could someone at CES 2016 please ask these questions? Hinton, are you reading this?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

I would hope that downconversion to SDR is an option for the latest and greatest as well as legacy. If not, the combo packs have a BD for HDR unimpressed.

But then why would I buy the combo pack to begin with if the downconversion is shite? I'll just stick with regular Blu

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not questioning the conversion because I'd deliberately choose to watch HDR in SDR, it's because I CAN'T watch HDR at all on my TV, geddit? And besides, even if I did want to consciously do that, I highly doubt that the HDR graded version will be able to ape the genuine SDR grade when downconverted, especially if differences in things like power windows etc are there.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But then why would I buy the combo pack to begin with if the downconversion is shite? I'll just stick with regular Blu

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not questioning the conversion because I'd deliberately choose to watch HDR in SDR, it's because I CAN'T watch HDR at all on my TV, geddit? And besides, even if I did want to consciously do that, I highly doubt that the HDR graded version (which may have different power window applications etc) will be able to ape the genuine SDR grade when downconverted, especially if differences in things like power windows etc are there.

Yes, it could get very confusing. How would the down convert compare with the legacy BD? Particularly if you have a rights holder authorized HDR regrade with a BD of the regrade in the combo pack. How would the "regraded" BD compare with the legacy BD.

What if the Director's intent changes with the HDR regrade? I hope George Lucas isn't reading this. Maybe Disney can keep him in check.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Lyris

I can kind of answer that now. Down converting HDR to legacy displays is a Mandatory part of the BD-FE/UHD BD spec. However it's up to the manufacturer to implement it as they see fit so I imagine in the early days, we'll see some quality variation here between players.

It's kind of at odds with regular BD where most players, at least with 1080p, were incredibly similar, or ideally, identical. There's more room to differentiate with this feature.

Samsung were demoing their player's ability to do this behind closed doors at CES.

I bloody knew it, ugh

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

What if the Director's intent changes with the HDR regrade? I hope George Lucas isn't reading this. Maybe Disney can keep him in check.

Sure, that's been broached before. Some directors change their mind whenever the wind blows. *cough* Ridley Scott

People seem to be getting confused: for me it's not HDR itself which is the issue! It's the notion of people with no prior creative input on the movie presiding over a retroactive HDR grade which, as previously noted, can bring undesired results if not sensitively handled.

Mike said it in another post: for very recent stuff the HDR grade really isn't an issue because the 'talent' must've been involved or at least consulted (it's not like this has suddenly started happening this month, as HDR grades have been going on behind the scenes for at least a year or two), it's more older catalogue stuff where the director/DP are no longer around.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

Robert are there any people on the CES floor, where you can ask and discuses the fact a lot of UHD Blu-ray launch titles are 2K finished movies? And those are in fact upscaled for UHD Blu-ray.

A lot of Warner and FOX titles are affected. Or did they keep 4K in mind during post-production and created a 4K copy as well for the archives. Hopefully you can find some people who can answer this critical point.

Native content = king.

Not Robert and I was only there for less than 2 days because CES reminds me of a mosh pit but, there is nothing ‘to keep’ in 4K if the motion pictures were originally acquired in ARRIRAW 2.8K, (or even more recently 3.4K) to begin with.....and der are alot of dem.

I’ll elaborate in a follow-up response to David (lyris) whom I see has entered the thread.

Give me a moment.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Actually, I had just started reading the new pre Game of Thrones George R.R. Martin book, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and my 75 year old brain decided that R. Martin was wrong in the post. That’s what happens when you multitask at my age.

Hell, I do that too and I’m not close to being your seasoned age so don’t worry about it. (MR scan done for head trauma (bicycle crash, cracked helmet, etc.) showed no evidence of early onset Alzheimer’s.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

The real concern is with broadcast UHD HDR. Who will keep the adsters in check? I have a feeling many of us will be looking for the Down Convert to SDR button on our remotes, just as we used to mash the volume button on those intrusive “door bell” ads of yesteryear.

As you see….
People are aware

For years, I've attended (and stayed for their entirety) professional conferences and retreats like so - http://hollywoodpostalliance.org/?page_id=131172

If anything, every time we've (my wife and I) have attended HPA, it's given me an excuse to post photos of our *best friend*.

[Dreamliner330]

I'm wondering if a HDR UHD BD downscaled to 1080 on a non-HDR display will look any better than the standard BD, in terms of color and clarity....

When The Martian releases on UHD I sure hope there will be in-depth comparisons to answer these questions.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lyris

It's a very good point and one I'd like to put to them. I imagine that only a very select few prestige titles would ever be re-finished in true 4K and there will be a lot of scaled content.

I'm hoping to talk to someone from the BDA for an HDTVtest article later, and I'll ask this very question.

Speaking from my humble proven experience in discussing post production workflows regarding K’s, with the exception of Sony Pictures which needn’t be too concerned with that matter as they have a sufficient stable of true 4K content,

there is a real economic challenge with more recent films having a lot of vfx

Sooooo…….

you “imagine” right

as to the other studios, well , in fact, the *purist*(s), (or at least one technology officer who is candid about it behind closed doors) is not very happy about performing this upscaling and then advertising the products as ‘4K UHD Blu-ray’, but alas, that be an internal conflict between thee purist technology executives vs. the business V.P.s.

If you would like to get further confirmation, again, best to contact a studio source (Lionsgate, Disney, Warner, etc.) rather than getting something in that regard from a BDA spokesperson who doesn’t have a position at a major Hollywood studio.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner330

I'm wondering if a HDR UHD BD downscaled to 1080 on a non-HDR display will look any better than the standard BD, in terms of color and clarity....

When The Martian releases on UHD I sure hope there will be in-depth comparisons to answer these questions.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did look better than regular Blu on a 1080p set.

[Opips3]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I wouldn't be surprised if they did look better than regular Blu on a 1080p set.

Yeah, 20% improve on picture.

With Super UHD 4K HDR that's 90% improve on picture than bluray standard.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I wouldn't be surprised if they did look better than regular Blu on a 1080p set.

The bitrate will help no doubt

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As you see….
People are aware

Yes, "people" are aware. You are aware and I am aware, but what about the broadcast industry? Will legislation be required to rein in HDR abuses? Time will tell. They never get out in front of these issues.

I want a SDR down convert button on my remote so I can deal with it.