The Criterion Collection

[EliBurn]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Can we get a 4K of Memories Of Murder? Using a transfer that isn't so dark and green? Really wish Criterion would have done their own instead of using the 4K restoration provided by CJ Entertainment.

Sure doesn't sound like we can.

"supervised by cinematographer Kim Hyung Ku and approved by director Bong Joon Ho"

[M A]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Can we get a 4K of Memories Of Murder? Using a transfer that isn't so dark and green? Really wish Criterion would have done their own instead of using the 4K restoration provided by CJ Entertainment.

The 4K restoration doesn't have the green tint. Criterion added that themselves for their release.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by M A

The 4K restoration doesn't have the green tint. Criterion added that themselves for their release.

Criterion definitely didn't add it. The green tint predates their BD release.

"This new 4K digital restoration was undertaken by CJ Entertainment, and was supervised by cinematographer Kim Hyung Ku and approved by director Bong Joon Ho. A new digital transfer was created on a Cintel Blackmagic Design film scanner. The restoration was carried out using MTI Film's DRS, PFClean, and DIAMANT-Film.

Transfer supervisor: Kim Hyung Ku, Ok Im Sik.
Colorist: Kim Seung Won/CJ PowerCast, Seongnam, South Korea."

You can see it used in this trailer from 2020 by NEON. Criterion licensed the film from NEON.

MEMORIES OF MURDER Trailer - YouTube

[M A]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Criterion definitely didn't add it. The green tint predates their BD release.



You can see it used in this trailer from 2020 by NEON. Criterion licensed the film from NEON.

MEMORIES OF MURDER Trailer - YouTube

My mistake. I thought the French releases from The Jokers (which aren't as green) were representative of the restoration, but I guess they reduced the green instead of Criterion increasing it.

[kmhofmann]

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

I found this article online that discusses the question: https://filmmakermagazine.com/117844...-restorations/

It's long and rather technical, but very interesting. Towards the end, the author specifically interviewed the chief colorist at L'Immagine Ritrovata who basically confirmed that he's trying to match the look of release prints from that era - it even notes that he often watches a release print while making color corrections so he can match what is projected. It's a good read and helps give some context to the discussion, even though everyone will still have their own opinions about the various approaches.

Yep, that is a pretty well known article on the topic.

There is also this blog post (in French): https://testsbluray.com/2021/05/08/r...ts-techniques/ that is an interesting read.

And see also this interview with Davide Pozzi, head of restoration at L'Immagine Ritrovata (in French): https://digitalcine.fr/4k-bluray-dvd...age-retrouvee/

But rather than dismissing Ritrovata's work as cinematic vandalism, we should rather see them trying to reach a certain goal, namely emulating release print characteristics. Other restoration houses take slightly different approaches here. And, yes, Ritrovata probably do not always fully succeed in their goal.
But the approach taken is not a bad thing in itself.

Quoting from the interview with Davide Pozzi (and run through Google Translate):

With digital technologies, you can't do everything, but you can do much better than with camera lenses because the silver calibration of the time was a primary calibration, whereas today you can proceed to a primary, secondary calibration , etc.

When we worked on Dragon Gate Inn(1967) by King Hu (available on Blu-ray from Carlotta) or on Sergio Leone's films, with today's tools, we could make a magnificent, very clear, very balanced restoration. But when you go to speak with Leone's cinematographer, when you read what Sergio wrote, when you ask Technicolor Rome for the lighting document or even when you find the period copies that were printed in Technicolor, you discover that the Sergio Leone's cinema was not a balanced cinema. He shot in Techniscope two perforations and threw nothing. When in a close-up, it was full sun and the next shot, there were clouds, he didn't care. It's impossible to connect that. And when you talk to the Technicolor people, they tell you that Leone kept making them change the color of yellow because he said that the western is a “dirty” cinema. So when you watch a copy of a Leone movie, it's completely yellow.

However today, if you restore a film in this way, you are attacked from all sides. When we worked onThe Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) from the negatives, we had also found the original silver light calibrations in Rome. The restoration we had done was very yellow and when MGM released it in the States, they got torn. For the new restoration of And for a few dollars more(1965) that Kino Lorber will be releasing soon, they asked us this time for something very modern, no doubt to avoid the same criticism.

I can understand this kind of discourse “I don't like the historical approach. I want a modern approach because we have a modern audience”. On the other hand, what I don't accept is people who take betas or telecines from the 90s as a reference, which had a very “video” approach. And all the restorations done today are compared to that like it's the bible. For me, the reference is still a copy from the period or the word of the chief op. Why should I stick to a 90s telecine when I'm restoring a film from the 60s or 70s?

And when you discuss with the main players in the field, Criterion, Kino, Carlotta, they tend to stay anchored in those 90s precisely because they fear criticism. They are not completely wrong if you go to see the opinions in this direction on the internet.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Yep, that is a pretty well known article on the topic.

There is also this blog post (in French): https://testsbluray.com/2021/05/08/r...ts-techniques/ that is an interesting read.

And see also this interview with Davide Pozzi, head of restoration at L'Immagine Ritrovata (in French): https://digitalcine.fr/4k-bluray-dvd...age-retrouvee/

But rather than dismissing Ritrovata's work as cinematic vandalism, we should rather see them trying to reach a certain goal, namely emulating release print characteristics. Other restoration houses take slightly different approaches here. And, yes, Ritrovata probably do not always fully succeed in their goal.
But the approach taken is not a bad thing in itself.

These are some of the best explanations I've seen for this ongoing "problem," so thanks for sharing them. I can appreciate the perspective of the restorationists that don't feel obligated to conform to the more modern look, but I'm still not sure if their approach is any better. Regardless, we're at the mercy of the decisions by those who are spending the time & resources to restore the films and I'm still grateful for all the improvements they bring. In the future, at least I'll have a more open mind about these color disagreements, knowing there are valid perspectives on both sides of the question.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

These are some of the best explanations I've seen for this ongoing "problem," so thanks for sharing them. I can appreciate the perspective of the restorationists that don't feel obligated to conform to the more modern look, but I'm still not sure if their approach is any better. Regardless, we're at the mercy of the decisions by those who are spending the time & resources to restore the films and I'm still grateful for all the improvements they bring. In the future, at least I'll have a more open mind about these color disagreements, knowing there are valid perspectives on both sides of the question.

This comments are a load of bull. Leone's films were never piss yellow, despite the above claims. You can literally watch an IB tech print (that does not fade) of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly—one played for a week in LA a few years ago— and the whites are not yellow, the skies are blue, not green or teal, and wood is brown, not green.

The yellow/teal/green look IS the modern look, not balanced whites/blues. Its cute they try to spin it the other way to justify their continued mistakes, but now they are just lying to people.

[NeoNical]

Interesting articles. I do think that the restorations in some of them are a bit too yellow, but I can understand that the film prints themselves have a very warm color as well. I think a great restoration would still be warmer but also not as extremely yellow. I'm not a fan of every L'Immagine Ritrovata restoration like the black levels on Dragon Inn (1967) can be a bit distracting, but I can understand a bit better of their approach. One thing I'm curious about the restorations are whether or not these films have a lot of grain and clarity left intact because some of these restorations seem unintentionally soft to me at times.

I really don't have much say in how these films should look as I have never seen any of these film prints in the first place

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

This comments are a load of bull. Leone's films were never piss yellow, despite the above claims. You can literally watch an IB tech print (that does not fade) of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly—one played for a week in LA a few years ago— and the whites are not yellow, the skies are blue, not green or teal, and wood is brown, not green.

The yellow/teal/green look IS the modern look, not balanced whites/blues. Its cute they try to spin it the other way to justify their continued mistakes, but now they are just lying to people.

Stated with all your usual tact and charm lol. Thanks for the input

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

Stated with all your usual tact and charm lol. Thanks for the input

Facts matter. Sorry I was "too harsh" for your sensibilities. Bye-bye.

[CinemaScope]

Yup, what a load of old cobblers from Ritrovata. What's so modern about whites being white, proper blue skies & neutral greys. What's so modern about a picture looking good, not yellow or cyan.

[HipsterTrash]

How the hell isn't there a Nuri Bilge Ceylan film in the collection?

[kmhofmann]

Originally Posted by CinemaScope

Yup, what a load of old cobblers from Ritrovata. What's so modern about whites being white, proper blue skies & neutral greys. What's so modern about a picture looking good, not yellow or cyan.

Because printed and projected film has never looked like that. The D65 white point that modern devices are often calibrated is far from the white point of projected film release prints.

Look at some film print emulation LUTs (e.g., via simple Google search). If they look warm - or as some people would say, teal and yellow - to you, that's not because it's a supposedly modern approach. That's a common misunderstanding. It's because they emulate the look of printed film stock of the times, often Kodak 2383.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Facts matter. Sorry I was "too harsh" for your sensibilities. Bye-bye.

Originally Posted by CinemaScope

Yup, what a load of old cobblers from Ritrovata. What's so modern about whites being white, proper blue skies & neutral greys. What's so modern about a picture looking good, not yellow or cyan.

It's possible to disagree with the Ritrovata approach without calling them liars or slurring their work as "vandalism." I even said I don't necessarily agree with their approach, despite hearing their reasoning. But getting pissy when folks are just trying to share different perspectives and explanations is unwarranted. You guys both contribute to these boards, just don't see the hostile tone as helpful.

I'll even apologize for my original reply to Bates, which was a similar overreaction on my part.

[CinemaScope]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Because printed and projected film has never looked like that. The D65 white point that modern devices are often calibrated is far from the white point of projected film release prints.

Look at some film print emulation LUTs (e.g., via simple Google search). If they look warm - or as some people would say, teal and yellow - to you, that's not because it's a supposedly modern approach. That's a common misunderstanding. It's because they emulate the look of printed film stock of the times, often Kodak 2383.

Again, what a load of old cobblers! I was a colour grader in a film lab for 20 years & a telecine colourist for another 25 years, so I'm very unimpressed with your post - how the hell can teal & yellow look warm? A lot of these colour decisions are being made by people who weren't even alive when the film was released.

Happily so many catalogue releases get it right.

[peschi]

my teal card bingo card is full.

[alexrinse]

Originally Posted by randian

Very nice, but irrelevant. As long as they think destroying works of art by yellow-washing them as a form of copyright is a good thing they deserve to crash and burn. It's artistic vandalism.

It's not irrelevant - you wrongly assumed and appear to still assume that the film in question has something to do with the lab in Bologna, whereas it is simply being screened at their adjacent festival and the restoration had nothing to do with them.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by HipsterTrash

How the hell isn't there a Nuri Bilge Ceylan film in the collection?

Because Janus/Criterion don’t have the rights to any of them.

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by HipsterTrash

How the hell isn't there a Nuri Bilge Ceylan film in the collection?

There are many modern auteurs of cinema whose films aren't in the (Criterion) collection. Several other labels are doing an excellent job on great new arthouse cinema, so it's not like they are pining for Criterion to give them life.

[bonehica]

The fun facts you learn from these closet vids. I always love a John Cassavetes drop! Great selection of films.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUu3VsxUMsw&t=10s