The Criterion Collection

[mande2013]

Originally Posted by mande2013

I’d add Dillinger Is Dead, although it’s not actually out of print (I ended up buying the Italian Blu-ray, which doesn’t have English subs, but you can get by without them if you’ve already seen the film a few times). Also À Nos Amours, which is also in print incidentally. At one point, these two films pretty much epitomized what made Criterion so precious to me.

Anyhow, some films I’m surprised have never made it beyond DVD from Criterion are Viridiana, Ordet, Cria Cuervos, Spirit of the Beehive, Shoot The Piano Player, and yes, A Nos Amours. All have been released on Blu-ray in Europe I think, and in one case, even on 4K.

On a different topic, Criterion may not always have the best release of a given film, but it’s the extent and breadth of their physical catalog, not to mention all the stuff they’re sitting on too, that puts them in a different class. Their catalog covers almost all the bases of cinema history. No other boutique comes close in this regard. One area of cinema history they generally do skip over is a lot of the late 20th century/millennial era schlock that a company like Arrow has really emphasized. Criterion aren’t going to release stuff like Tremors or Demolition Man. And then you have a company like Indicator/Powerhouse that goes deep deep deep into the Classic Hollywood vaults.

Radiance basically seem to be releasing a lot of the kinds of films Criterion would have tackled 15-20 years ago.

[Sifox211]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Your rant ignores two things:

1. Your specific taste in movies that you would like to see from Criterion is extremely niche, and thus your overall wishes are unrealistic.
2. Criterion is still a business that needs to operate profitably.

There is some truth to the fact that Criterion could up their game, but movie selection is one of the less important things I'd complain about.

It seems to be that almost everyone who responded to Duke's post has ignored the main point, which is that Criterion is sitting on a thousand titles and is not releasing them and this prevents others from doing so. Actual selection of titles he'd like to see released is a sub point.

Presumably, Criterion's strategy in this regard is focused on their streaming channel; but as a business they might realise some cash by licencing out the physical media options for titles they themselves are not planning to release.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

There is some truth to the fact that Criterion could up their game, but movie selection is one of the less important things I'd complain about.

Huh?

So you're advocating not wishing for certain titles to be released that you actually would like to own and instead just buying movies from Criterion whether you have any interest in seeing them or not as long as they represent good technical quality?

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

This is just one example of many. I really do wish if Criterion was certain they wouldn't release certain films on disc that they would be willing to sub license. That would truly be nice as well give them some extra added income.

I think Criterion as a company is filled with too much pride and I just would not expect them to want to share that with any other label unless it's one they themselves establish. It seems the best relationship they have with other studios is probably with Warners and I actually could envision a dual label between them for some films, but ironically Warners, or at least the Warner Archive, which could make a good fit with Criterion, is as slow to release titles as Criterion is and are also sitting on a vault of potential properties for production.

Ideally, but just in terms of being prolific and not necessarily based on production/technical quality, a team up with KINO would likely ensure most of Duke's wants being released in a reasonable time frame.

[mande2013]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Ideally, but just in terms of being prolific and not necessarily based on production/technical quality, a team up with KINO would likely ensure most of Duke's wants being released in a reasonable time frame.

I get the sense from offhand comments here and there that Criterion as an institution and organization aren't very well-liked by other boutiques in this industry. As an example, Ben Stoddart of BFI with his dry sense of humor will take glib potshots at Criterion from time to time on social media lol.

Or Kino going "well it should be obvious whose choice it was we lost all these MGM titles".

I've also heard Peter Becker isn't well liked as a person by those in the know, but that could just be hearsay.

They're still an important facet of present-day film culture though between the Criterion Channel and releasing a bells and whistles edition of King Lear in the current environment .

And a lot of people were happy about Winchester '73, as well.

On a side note, I honestly wouldn't mind if Criterion forewent disc releases/upgrades of some of the less commercially viable titles but offered them in 4K on platforms like iTunes and VUDU. I'm thinking of titles like Classe Tous Risques or the less popular Truffauts, such as The Soft Skin, The Woman next Door, etc.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Your rant ignores two things:

1. Your specific taste in movies that you would like to see from Criterion is extremely niche, and thus your overall wishes are unrealistic.
2. Criterion is still a business that needs to operate profitably.

There is some truth to the fact that Criterion could up their game, but movie selection is one of the less important things I'd complain about.

This.

Originally Posted by Sifox211

It seems to be that almost everyone who responded to Duke's post has ignored the main point, which is that Criterion is sitting on a thousand titles and is not releasing them and this prevents others from doing so. Actual selection of titles he'd like to see released is a sub point.

Presumably, Criterion's strategy in this regard is focused on their streaming channel; but as a business they might realise some cash by licencing out the physical media options for titles they themselves are not planning to release.

Not this, other than I do anticipate Criterion will soon let the titles they don't intend to release go to other labels

Where is this list of titles that Criterion is supposedly sitting on, hand in hand with the line item cost of restoration and projected unit sales?

The hard truth here is simply without confirmation from Criterion, the scope and related quality of the source materials for these titles is nothing more than a collection of unsubstantiated rumors passed around by those who have confused online chatter with the reality that Criterion is not in the 2K to 8K unit boutique label market circa 2024.

As far as the main point, it's Duke moseying in the Criterion thread every so often to post his favorite Japanese titles and let everyone know how much he loves Japanese films. That's it.

Ride easy into the sunset until next time Duke, and give our collective regards to Gosha.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

Either way, I kind of expected a lot of devout Criterion fans to chime in to my rant, and I respect everyone's opinions, well, almost everyone's. I still think Criterion has become mostly a joke and as someone else said, is mostly driving in neutral and riding on its own coattails for awhile.

Originally Posted by cgpublic

As far as the main point, it's Duke moseying in the Criterion thread every so often to post his favorite Japanese titles and let everyone know how much he loves Japanese films. That's it.

A response both patronizing and dismissive at the same time! There you go Duke, I would say your expectation of a devout Criterion fan chiming in has been fulfilled.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by Sifox211

It seems to be that almost everyone who responded to Duke's post has ignored the main point, which is that Criterion is sitting on a thousand titles and is not releasing them and this prevents others from doing so. Actual selection of titles he'd like to see released is a sub point.

Presumably, Criterion's strategy in this regard is focused on their streaming channel; but as a business they might realise some cash by licencing out the physical media options for titles they themselves are not planning to release.

I think what Duke and you and others are overlooking is that Criterion may simply not believe those "thousands of titles" have enough demand to support a physical release. Some might have poor quality masters, good enough for DVD or streaming but not for HD presentation (much less 4K). Others might have decent elements but are simply too obscure, or have other issues. It costs both time and money to prepare a release - cleanup, mastering, authoring, subtitling, compiling extras, etc. It also consumes part of their limited capacity at the disc pressing plant. Criterion might simply be choosing to spend those limited resources on other titles, rather than reflecting some conscious decision to "hold back" certain films for streaming or other purposes.

I know some have said "just give us the movies" - don't bother cleaning up the masters, preparing extras, designing packaging, etc. But that's simply not Criterion's model, at least not since Eclipse ended. They aren't going to jeopardize their reputation in the marketplace by releasing sub-par products.

Now, I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of titles that I would love to see released (Spirit of the Beehive, anyone?). But I also recognize they're running a business, which means their choices won't always align perfectly with the preferences of us collectors. I'm always glad for what they release, but also grateful we have so many other labels producing great content that we don't need to rely solely on Criterion.

[mande2013]

I'm not sure Spirit of the Beehive is too obscure to simply be thrown on a standard blu-ray, even in the current environment. Something like Dillinger Is Dead is maybe more of a long shot.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

I think Criterion as a company is filled with too much pride and I just would not expect them to want to share that with any other label unless it's one they themselves establish. It seems the best relationship they have with other studios is probably with Warners and I actually could envision a dual label between them for some films, but ironically Warners, or at least the Warner Archive, which could make a good fit with Criterion, is as slow to release titles as Criterion is and are also sitting on a vault of potential properties for production.

Man, I swear, the whole “this company is just SITTING on titles” thing is really exasperating. Other than having absolutely no actual confirmation of what they do have and don’t have, it ignores any issues with materials, with rights, with participation, with trying to find credible extras, and most importantly, what the LICENSOR wants. (And for all the whole sharing with other distributor arguments - I mean, forget that the licensor signed up to get a high-profile Criterion release, are these other labels going to refund the money Criterion spent on those rights in a low-margin business?)

Again, I don’t believe Criterion is perfect. They’re not run by perfect people and they’re not a perfect company. I would certainly make different choices in some respects. More commentaries! More extras! (Hey Togo! I would absolutely be right in line with ya for more Japanese titles too! A COLT IS MY PASSPORT! NOW PLEASE! )

But I remember the saga of The Lady Eve. People were howling about the lack of a BD release. They were searching for new materials for YEARS. Finally, they decided they had to pull the trigger, that better materials weren’t forthcoming. They were unexpectedly up front about it. And what happened? They got boiled in oil for releasing what people called a substandard transfer. So when I see arguments to the effect of, hey, just release what you got - well, they did that and people PUNISHED them for it.

I guess this is my point: no business, especially one that operates on razor-thin margins like this one, just sits on potential income without a reason. (I remember Becker at NYFF describing the sales pitch of the guy who bought the company: “What would you do if you had access to CAPITAL?”)

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

I think what Duke and you and others are overlooking is that Criterion may simply not believe those "thousands of titles" have enough demand to support a physical release. Some might have poor quality masters, good enough for DVD or streaming but not for HD presentation (much less 4K). Others might have decent elements but are simply too obscure, or have other issues. It costs both time and money to prepare a release - cleanup, mastering, authoring, subtitling, compiling extras, etc. It also consumes part of their limited capacity at the disc pressing plant. Criterion might simply be choosing to spend those limited resources on other titles, rather than reflecting some conscious decision to "hold back" certain films for streaming or other purposes.

I know some have said "just give us the movies" - don't bother cleaning up the masters, preparing extras, designing packaging, etc. But that's simply not Criterion's model, at least not since Eclipse ended. They aren't going to jeopardize their reputation in the marketplace by releasing sub-par products.

Now, I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of titles that I would love to see released (Spirit of the Beehive, anyone?). But I also recognize they're running a business, which means their choices won't always align perfectly with the preferences of us collectors. I'm always glad for what they release, but also grateful we have so many other labels producing great content that we don't need to rely solely on Criterion.

You nailed it. And I think you make a good point about films like The Spirit of the Beehive not having been released yet. There are hundreds of titles that Criterion have actually released on DVD like "Spirit.." that have yet to be upgraded. I personally think those should have greater priority over anything that they've only released digitally/streaming. With the advent of 4K, Blu-ray upgrades have taken a huge hit, and now we're more likely to see a title jump from DVD to 4K (like Peeping Tom, and The Long Good Friday) but that means hundreds of spines likely won't ever make the cut.

And I do obviously sympathize with Duke, and am a fellow fan of Japanese cinema. I just have accepted that Criterion will never release the majority of the hundreds they have rights to for one reason or another. I know it's hard to look at it this way, but at least we have access to those films. There are so many other thousands of great Japanese films that are out there without any easy way to actually watch them. Take my favorite film of all time, Hiroshi Inagaki's Chushingura (1962). There is no release of it whatsoever, so I would actually be ecstatic if I could actually have it on the Criterion Channel just to watch whenever I want, even if ultimately I'd prefer to own a proper Blu-ray of it.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by mande2013

I get the sense from offhand comments here and there that Criterion as an institution and organization aren't very well-liked by other boutiques in this industry. As an example, Ben Stoddart of BFI with his dry sense of humor will take glib potshots at Criterion from time to time on social media lol.

Or Kino going "well it should be obvious whose choice it was we lost all these MGM titles".

Heh. They can be a surly bunch. Kino’s social media dude flaming Sofia Coppola in public over LiT - or for that matter, William Friedkin for taking his time on the To Live in Die in LA grade - seems like an unwise choice. Say what you will about Criterion, but there are definite advantages to keeping your mouth shut.

(I do remember the one filmmaker who for sure flamed Criterion in public - in the glory LD years, no less - was Ridley Scott. IIRC, he was FURIOUS with their grade of Blade Runner, turning it into “a candy store.” It’s been forty years, but I would still be highly, highly surprised if any of his films ever turn up in the collection.)

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

Man, I swear, the whole “this company is just SITTING on titles” thing is really exasperating. Other than having absolutely no actual confirmation of what they do have and don’t have, it ignores any issues with materials, with rights, with participation, with trying to find credible extras, and most importantly, what the LICENSOR wants. (And for all the whole sharing with other distributor arguments - I mean, forget that the licensor signed up to get a high-profile Criterion release, are these other labels going to refund the money Criterion spent on those rights in a low-margin business?)

Again, I don’t believe Criterion is perfect. They’re not run by perfect people and they’re not a perfect company. I would certainly make different choices in some respects. More commentaries! More extras! (Hey Togo! I would absolutely be right in line with ya for more Japanese titles too! A COLT IS MY PASSPORT! NOW PLEASE! )

But I remember the saga of The Lady Eve. People were howling about the lack of a BD release. They were searching for new materials for YEARS. Finally, they decided they had to pull the trigger, that better materials weren’t forthcoming. They were unexpectedly up front about it. And what happened? They got boiled in oil for releasing what people called a substandard transfer. So when I see arguments to the effect of, hey, just release what you got - well, they did that and people PUNISHED them for it.

I guess this is my point: no business, especially one that operates on razor-thin margins like this one, just sits on potential income without a reason. (I remember Becker at NYFF describing the sales pitch of the guy who bought the company: “What would you do if you had access to CAPITAL?”)

I agree with you, Dimitri, but I think the reactions of Duke and many others who seemingly have lost their patience with Criterion "sitting on titles" has to do with the lack of a lot of credible information about the company being fothcoming. No, it's not up to Criterion to establish a public relations department and report their operations to all of us customers and potential customers, but you have to admit that the lack of substantial information regarding what they have and what they intend on doing with it does understandably fuel a lot of impatience and even vitriolic reactions. Our culture has become an instant gratification seeking one and while I myself can wait for Criterion to release any favorites of mine they might have, I don't begrudge others feeling the opposite, as unreasonable as they might appear at times.

[DFR]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

It’s been forty years, but I would still be highly, highly surprised if any of his films ever turn up in the collection.

[Jaymole]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Take my favorite film of all time, Hiroshi Inagaki's Chushingura (1962). There is no release of it whatsoever, so I would actually be ecstatic if I could actually have it on the Criterion Channel just to watch whenever I want, even if ultimately I'd prefer to own a proper Blu-ray of it.

Hopefully you own the DVD.

As time moves on, I am more and more accepting to make do with the DVD of many films which I know will probably never make it onto blu-ray.

That is also why I get way more excited for films coming on blu-ray for the first time over films upgrading onto 4K from bluray.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

I agree with you, Dimitri, but I think the reactions of Duke and many others who seemingly have lost their patience with Criterion "sitting on titles" has to do with the lack of a lot of credible information about the company being fothcoming. No, it's not up to Criterion to establish a public relations department and report their operations to all of us customers and potential customers, but you have to admit that the lack of substantial information regarding what they have and what they intend on doing with it does understandably fuel a lot of impatience and even vitriolic reactions. Our culture has become an instant gratification seeking one and while I myself can wait for Criterion to release any favorites of mine they might have, I don't begrudge others feeling the opposite, as unreasonable as they might appear at times.

No, that’s reasonable. People get irked in a vacuum and I get that. I’ve just personally been following them so long, been both frustrated and pleasantly surprised for decades now, that I’m comfortable with the “they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do” perspective. It does admittedly help that their choices are a lot closer to my own personal lane than some others here.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by DFR

Zing! Of course, I forgot that finally cracked. Still, it was a long, long time before he let go of that grudge.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Jaymole

Hopefully you own the DVD.

As time moves on, I am more and more accepting to make do with the DVD of many films which I know will probably never make it onto blu-ray.

That is also why I am way more excited for films coming on blu-ray for the first time over films upgrading onto 4K from bluray.

Yeah, I blind-bought the DVD when I was younger and loved it. Watching it now on a more modern display is painful though haha

edit: Here are some screenshots I just took of the DVD on my computer. It's all inside a small window on the screen. I hope others can tell just how nicely the compositions are, and how lavish a production it was even with these small examples. It's an incredibly star-studded film from an acclaimed director, and features the most famous Japanese story, so I'm not sure why it never gained recognition here. Perhaps if Criterion had acquired it back then, it very likely would have.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by mande2013

I'm not sure Spirit of the Beehive is too obscure to simply be thrown on a standard blu-ray, even in the current environment. Something like Dillinger Is Dead is maybe more of a long shot.

For sure, I'm confident that Beehive will be released eventually. I also trust there's a reason it hasn't happened yet, even though nothing has been stated. Elements? Rights issue? Maybe Erice wants to be involved but hasn't had time, etc.

My point, which Dimitri articulated better than me, is that no company would simply "sit on" a title that could be generating income within their existing business model. There's always a reason something doesn't get released, and sometimes that reason is as simple as "we don't think it will make money," or even worse "we don't think it will make as much money as this other option." As collectors, we don't like that but it's just the reality of the business.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

Heh. They can be a surly bunch. Kino’s social media dude flaming Sofia Coppola in public over LiT - or for that matter, William Friedkin for taking his time on the To Live in Die in LA grade - seems like an unwise choice. Say what you will about Criterion, but there are definite advantages to keeping your mouth shut.

(I do remember the one filmmaker who for sure flamed Criterion in public - in the glory LD years, no less - was Ridley Scott. IIRC, he was FURIOUS with their grade of Blade Runner, turning it into “a candy store.” It’s been forty years, but I would still be highly, highly surprised if any of his films ever turn up in the collection.)

My one and only encounter with a Criterion employee in the offline world came from the Laserdisc days when they had a company rep at a showcase day in a local video store. When I commented that it was a shame that their LD release of NORTH BY NORTHWEST came out in the improper aspect ratio this guy went ballistic on me, actually shouting how I had no idea what I was talking about and that none of Hitchcock's films needed to be letterboxed and that the proper ratio for NORTHWEST was 1:37. He was so obnoxious and rude an employee of the store had to come over and ask him to lower his tone. The next day I called Criterion's offices and reported what happened and they told me that mine was not the first complaint about the guy and that he would never be asked again to represent the company at any functions with the general public attending.

And of course, most of us have been on the blunt end with the often short fused KLI, so I don't think we will ever see a Criterion insider in this space. But as is proven everyday by reps for Hamilton Books, Mondo Macabro and Indicator, it is possible to deal with us and not blow up.