HDR Discussion Thread

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Full article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2...-war/88914196/

The DV version will look better on the LG because it is properly downsampled to the lower peak nits capability of the TV. The HDR10 version will be clipping highlights.

Do the same comparison on a >1000 nit TV (which of course is not possible right now because no DV TV will output 1000 nits) and I doubt you would see a difference.

[DanBa]

I think you’re right if the content is mastered at 1000 nits, because there is no color volume mapping to be carried on at the TV playback time.



http://www.dvinfo.net/article/show_r...014-day-5.html

But, how about 4000 nits content?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post45858785

There is a need to have an adopted adaptation for consistent visual metadata protocol (i.e. hence validated or creative controlled at the mastering time), so that the TV could get mapping instructions (i.e. adaptation for consistent visual metadata) generated at the mastering time.

That is why SMPTE ST 2094 is being standardized as far as I understand.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=335

HDR10 = ST 2084 + ST 2086
Dolby Vision "v2" = ST 2084 + ST 2086 + ST 2094-10 adaptation for consistent visual




About creative control, we don’t have to take position on one of the two following images, because these two images represent two different stories the filmmaker wants to tell.



(What is HDR? - Technicolor HDR Series Workshop - YouTube)

[bruceames]

Thanks for the info. So basically, given I have a 940C, that I would want the movies to be mastered at 1000 nits, rather than 4000, no? Is the difference noticeable only in the highlights that exceed the capability of my display, or is it the whole movie? If it's the former, then it may be just one or two small scenes, if that. Besides, even if it's mastered at 4000, it doesn't mean that any one scene will exceed 1000 nits.

But if it's the latter case, then that would make a difference. But would the difference be any worse that watch a movie "dumbed down" via DV to a 500 nit display?

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Question (from a listener): What are practical examples of where dynamic metadata is beneficial?

Answer (from the speaker), slightly paraphrased for clarity:
“For example, I think there are a lot of HDR streaming material available now on the internet from several providers and the devices at home ranges somewhere from 1000 nits, even some peaks out at 1500 nits to 600 nits to 300 nits to….. of course, the currently predominately SDR TV at 100 nits or 200 nits also would be using the same piece of content. And there are presentations ( ex. Dolby Vision) actually utilize a mapping algorithm using these dynamic metadata in 2094 to transform the image, to optimize the image. So in the previous example if there is any detailed creature lurking in the background of the horror movie you will see them whether you are watching it on your SDR TV or if you have a 500 nit display or a 1000 nit display and you will observe the creative intent. Of course Dolby Vision is not the only dynamic metadata system; other 2094 systems can do the same thing.”
...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=276

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/show_r...014-day-5.html

Prior to that, for HPA regulars, one of the most fun things were the no rules softball games from thee ‘ol days.

[DanBa]

HDR & Android 7.0:
https://source.android.com/devices/t...splay/hdr.html



. HDR10 & Android 7.0



. Dolby Vision & Android 7.0



. VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ & Android 7.0



VP9-HLG = HDR type HLG (BBC/NHK Hybrid Log Gamma support)
VP9-PQ = HDR type HDR10 (HDR10 / SMPTE ST 2084 PQ support)

So, we have:
. HLG in VP9 and HDR10 in VP9 (VP9: royalty free video coding format)
. HLG in VP9 (aimed at streaming) and HLG in HEVC (aimed at broadcast)

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...ts-111296.aspx
http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?sub...&id=1452198532
http://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/pages/2016-PR27.aspx

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

HLG

Scrolling down a tad to Z20X series, HLG software download notes for Toshiba TVs in Japan…..http://www.toshiba.co.jp/regza/suppo...ndex.html#Z20X
in preparation for viewing the first 4K HDR broadcast of a dramatic series (5 episodes, if I recall).

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post12410497

Addendum to thee ^ above: It was thee ~ 4,000 nits capable monitor from SIM, not their 10,000 nits display to be utilized at IBC 2016….http://www.ibc.org/future-zone-libra...ltd-stand-8f27

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

HDR & Android 7.0:....

I didn't have time previously...but, a belated good job with that ^ post.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by bruceames

So basically, given I have a 940C, that I would want the movies to be mastered at 1000 nits, rather than 4000, no?

In terms of keeping creative intent for consumer HDR displays it would be best if HDR movies were mastered at 1000 nits.

Originally Posted by DanBa

HDR & Android 7.0:
https://source.android.com/devices/t...splay/hdr.html

While it is nice that Android has support for all the major HDR formats I do wonder how many smartphone companies would really use Dolby Vision. The smartphone market has a thin profit margin so I can't see that many companies adding an HDR format that requires a license/royalty.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

In terms of keeping creative intent for consumer HDR displays it would be best if HDR movies were mastered at 1000 nits.

While it is nice that Android has support for all the major HDR formats I do wonder how many smartphone companies would really use Dolby Vision. The smartphone market has a thin profit margin so I can't see that many companies adding an HDR format that requires a license/royalty.

Yes Bruce, 1000 is good for the 940c because it clips 4000 nit content (not just because your tv isn't 4000 nits bit because sony didn't implement a good tone mapping algorithm to downscal and display properly).

As for big picture some people say all content should be 4000 to not only future proof the disc, but it also forces tv makers to get more creative and not be lazy with their tone mapping (those 2 reasons came directly from Stacey Spears of spectracal)

[K i r a]

If I just want to enjoy 4K UHD discs and 4K content (all and HDR) from Netflix, AMazon and whoever else would get it, is it worth upgrading from a Sony X850C to a Samsung KS8000?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by K i r a

If I just want to enjoy 4K UHD discs and 4K content (all and HDR) from Netflix, AMazon and whoever else would get it, is it worth upgrading from a Sony X850C to a Samsung KS8000?

I would say yes. The ks8000 has much more wow to its HDR than the 850c. How anal are you about black levels? You may get some bleed with the ks8000, but you may already have some on your 850c anyways.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

While it is nice that Android has support for all the major HDR formats I do wonder how many smartphone companies would really use Dolby Vision. The smartphone market has a thin profit margin so I can't see that many companies adding an HDR format that requires a license/royalty.

Regarding the huge number of smartphones, Dolby should have an appropriate licensing policy: probably thin profit margin and large number of licensed products, instead of fat profit margin and small number of licensed products.

There are Dolby Audio-compatible smartphones.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/categories/smartphone.html

Also Dolby Atmos is coming to the mobile industry.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...lby-atmos.html
https://www.jauntvr.com/press-releases/dolby-world/


We shall have a personal virtual giant screen movie theater: 4K screen phone compatible with Dolby Vision / HDR10 and with surround sound like Dolby Atmos slotted into an inexpensive phone accessory, a Virtual Reality headset.
We can go to a giant screen movie theater at anytime, anywhere in a virtual reality way by downloading a movie file into the smartphone and launching a VR media player app.







"It was better than sitting in a real theater, and immediately made me wonder why I'd ever go to a theater again if I could get my movies this way. When Carmack told me he watched the entire Matrix Trilogy and a full season of Max Headroom in there, I got a bit jealous. It feels like a true killer app for virtual reality."
http://gizmodo.com/inside-the-galaxy...ons-1646853596

It is preferable to get a 4K UHD screen phone like the upcoming Samsung Galaxy S8 for a comfortable HD viewing: a 4K UHD screen has a horizontal resolution of 3840, which is 3840/2 = 1920 per eye (perceived resolution with a VR headset).

[Richard Paul]

SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung) was approved a few days ago so now all of the dynamic metadata systems in SMPTE 2094 have been officially approved.

Originally Posted by ray0414

As for big picture some people say all content should be 4000 to not only future proof the disc, but it also forces tv makers to get more creative and not be lazy with their tone mapping (those 2 reasons came directly from Stacey Spears of spectracal)

For test discs that is a good idea but I suspect that the main reason certain companies push for 4000 nits brightness is related to money/patents.

Originally Posted by DanBa

Regarding the huge number of smartphones, Dolby should have an appropriate licensing policy: probably thin profit margin and large number of licensed products, instead of fat profit margin and small number of licensed products.

Possible, though I have heard rumors that the royalty rate for Dolby Vision is considered substantial.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung) was approved a few days ago so now all of the dynamic metadata systems in SMPTE 2094 have been officially approved.

For test discs that is a good idea but I suspect that the main reason certain companies push for 4000 nits brightness is related to money/patents.

Possible, though I have heard rumors that the royalty rate for Dolby Vision is considered substantial.

So let's summarize. Will hdr10 now be dynamic metadata instead of static? This was approved by SMPTE or BDA?



Another great reason Stacey listed for 4000 nits now, is that it prevents the studio’s down the line from re-releasing material advertising 4000 nits .

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Yes Bruce, 1000 is good for the 940c because it clips 4000 nit content (not just because your tv isn't 4000 nits bit because sony didn't implement a good tone mapping algorithm to downscal and display properly).

But on those 4000 nit masters, is it only clipping scenes that are above the capabilities of my 940C? I wonder how many scenes that are significantly above 1000 nits even though it is mastered at 4000 nits. It's possible that there is not a single scene above 1000 nits in some of those masters.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames

But on those 4000 nit masters, is it only clipping scenes that are above the capabilities of my 940C? I wonder how many scenes that are significantly above 1000 nits even though it is mastered at 4000 nits. It's possible that there is not a single scene above 1000 nits in some of those masters.

Its alot more than you think.

If you go read up on the UK shootout, Vincent explained what types of details get clipped, and it's things other than bright sun highlights. With Pan, things such bubbles get clipped. The sun is almost missing in 1 scene, but well defined and bright on the ks9800 (which has the best tone mapping).

[bruceames]

I wonder how the 940C would have done in that shootout. It'll get up over 1200 nits I believe, far more than the 940D. I don't have Pan, but I'm curious if I'd get that sun scene well defined on it. Where is that scene in the movie?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames

I wonder how the 940C would have done in that shootout. It'll get up over 1200 nits I believe, far more than the 940D. I don't have Pan, but I'm curious if I'd get that sun scene well defined on it. Where is that scene in the movie?

I'd bet the 940c is better than the 940d, and should at least not clip 1000 nit content like the 940d.

Here's the comparison and time stamp of the sun time stamp scene. You can flip back and forth between the dolby vision version (well defined sun) and the hdr10 version (which clips the sun). The sun clipping will be similar on other tvs.


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dolby...1606214303.htm