4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by aqupunk

Does anyone know if the ps4 is capable tech wise of being updated with new firmware to support 4k blu ray? Also so I assume my onkyo 805 reciever will need to be upgraded to do 4k right?

We can't know for sure now. Because BDA has yet to finalize the specs. The only obstacle I can think of is the physical Blu-ray drive. In terms of processing, the PS4 is capable of 4K video very easily. But if BDA has decided to use BDXL discs, then we're out of luck. It's very unlikely the regular Blu-ray discs now has sufficient storage for 4K

[Tok]

I don't think Sony wants to tie the success of PS4 to a new format. The main reason the PS3 was expensive was the new tech that was required at the time.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Tok

I don't think Sony wants to tie the success of PS4 to a new format. The main reason the PS3 was expensive was the new tech that was required at the time.

Sony made a huge gamble with PS3 and went overboard with a lot of specs. They included the PS2 hardware into the console for backward compatibility, SACD playback, among other stuff. But it stood the test of time. With firmware updates, it could decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD to LPCM, a neat trick to get around the HDMI 1.2 limitations and Stereoscopic 3D. It's by no means perfect, but damn could it do so much for such an old console.

Technologically, the PS4 can handle 4K. But unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the current Blu-ray drive will support discs beyond the current common standard 50GB disc.

[Tok]

Actually I believe 66GB is part of the 3D profile but I don't know if any discs have used it yet.

I hate to say it, but I think Bill Hunt is speaking with strong sense of where the industry has come from and the direction it is he'll bent on going. IOW discs will be around but don't bank on them being the primary delivery for any market other than hardcore enthusiasts.

[KRW1]

As a hardcore enthusiast, I'm not really interested in what others do. I paid a tenner yesterday for a 7" single that's free to download. I considered it a proper bargain. ('Sleaford Mods - Jolly ****er' for them that are interested).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by KRW1

As a hardcore enthusiast, I'm not really interested in what others do....

Owning a vintage Penton motorcycle is niche, Ferraris are niche, flying first class from LAX nonstop to Amsterdam is niche, seeing a 70mm presentation in Karlsruhe Germany is niche, Dolby Atmos may well turn out to be niche due to the expense involved for receiver and speakers, being happily married to the same ‘10’ for over 25 years is niche, hand feeding a wild coyote is niche…

I think I like niche.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Owning a vintage Penton motorcycle is niche, Ferraris are niche, flying first class from LAX nonstop to Amsterdam is niche, seeing a 70mm presentation in Karlsruhe Germany is niche, Dolby Atmos may well turn out to be niche due to the expense involved for receiver and speakers, being happily married to the same ‘10’ for over 25 years is niche, hand feeding a wild coyote is niche…

I think I like niche.

Oh, Dolby Atmos, definitely niche but I can't wait.

When bluray came out, I spent a fair amount on a balanced 7.1 set up, another small amount on a screen, receiver and so on, and have spent the last few years mainly watching things with mono soundtracks and in 4:3. I shall no doubt do the same this time around.

[Geoff D]

Heh. It's funny how people are wetting themselves about Atmos which is an incredibly esoteric audio upgrade IMO, and yet when it comes to a new video format people are queuing up to stick the boot in. It's amazing how much negativity has greeted one and not the other.

Sure, Atmos isn't being positioned as 'the next big thing' like 4K is, but at the same time I don't think anyone here really believes that 4K WILL take over. It'll be a niche for sure, and yet if there's room in the home theater market for something like Atmos to survive in the long-term, then there's certainly room for 4K also.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. It's funny how people are wetting themselves about Atmos which is an incredibly esoteric audio upgrade IMO, and yet when it comes to a new video format people are queuing up to stick the boot in. It's amazing how much negativity has greeted one and not the other.

Sure, Atmos isn't being positioned as 'the next big thing' like 4K is, but at the same time I don't think anyone here really believes that 4K WILL take over. It'll be a niche for sure, and yet if there's room in the home theater market for something like Atmos to survive in the long-term, then there's certainly room for 4K also.

Of course there is. The idea that 'one format will bind them all' like VHS or DVD did is outdated. There's plenty of room in the market for all types of set ups and, speaking for myself, but I suspect a few others, there's no way I'm spending £1-2-3k on a 4k projector (eventually) just to be able to stream House of Cards in 4k or buy some overpriced download from Sony, haha, no.

It's 4k disc or I'm sticking with what I've got.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Tok

Actually I believe 66GB is part of the 3D profile but I don't know if any discs have used it yet.

I hate to say it, but I think Bill Hunt is speaking with strong sense of where the industry has come from and the direction it is he'll bent on going. IOW discs will be around but don't bank on them being the primary delivery for any market other than hardcore enthusiasts.

3D BD itself kinda laid some of the groundwork for the 4K BD extension, it's no wonder they're talking about using the 66GB discs (announced 4 years ago, it was actually a proposed change to single layers from 25GB to 33GB, hence the 66GB dual layer option. I presume the 100GB discs will be 99GB triple layer platters.). 3D BD upped the maximum video data rate from 40 Mb/s to 60 Mb/s, and allowed storage of a 1920x2205 resolution video, now 4K BD has taken it a step further with a 100 Mb/s data rate and 3840x2160.

It's an evolution rather than a revolution, at least as far as BD tech goes.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by KRW1

Of course there is. The idea that 'one format will bind them all' like VHS or DVD did is outdated. There's plenty of room in the market for all types of set ups and, speaking for myself, but I suspect a few others, there's no way I'm spending £1-2-3k on a 4k projector (eventually) just to be able to stream House of Cards in 4k or buy some overpriced download from Sony, haha, no.

It's 4k disc or I'm sticking with what I've got.

I know, but that's what all the knockers keep using as ammo to fuel their anti-4K views, as if it's more about sticking it to the corporations who DO want us to all upgrade again. That's all well and good, but we're not corporations on these boards, we're actual people, and we can all see that 4K ain't gonna be taking anything over - but there's plenty of life left in the home video market to allow it to peacefully co-exist with everything else. Like Atmos.

And you're right about 4K on disc. It's that or bust for me, streaming can go **** itself.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. It's funny how people are wetting themselves about Atmos which is an incredibly esoteric audio upgrade IMO, and yet when it comes to a new video format people are queuing up to stick the boot in. It's amazing how much negativity has greeted one and not the other.

Sure, Atmos isn't being positioned as 'the next big thing' like 4K is, but at the same time I don't think anyone here really believes that 4K WILL take over. It'll be a niche for sure, and yet if there's room in the home theater market for something like Atmos to survive in the long-term, then there's certainly room for 4K also.

I think 4K BD can surplant the current BD market. People who are into BD are primarily enthuasists and they will most likely upgrade to 4KBD anyway. And when you consider that the 4KBD discs are backwards compatible with current BD players (although I'm not sure how a current player will convert BT2020 down to Rec 709 along with the 10-bit color and HDR encoding), it makes sense to slowly start replacing BD with 4KBD.

I too am a bit shocked that so many people on a BD enthuasist site are against 4K. You would think that people here would not mind paying more money for better quality, just as I would happily pay extra for a 35mm or especially 70mm presentation of a movie over a DCP. I buy vinyl when I could get the same music for free on YouTube. You may argue that the format is not viable, and that is a legitimate thing to ask, but you'd think people would still be excited about the new format instead of wishing that it would die. Did you wish that BD would die when DVD was the bee's knees back in 2002? Nobody forced me to upgrade, but when I saw Casino Royale on BD for the first time, I knew there was no going back to DVD land for movies anymore.

I think 4K TVs will catch on eventually once the economy in the US gets a bit better and eventually that is all that will be sold in stores anyway. Sports will always sell TVs, and seeing even a compressed 4K soccer clip on one of the early Sony 4K TVs was enough to convince me to upgrade.

With all of the streaming options that people can take advantage of now, I don't think J6P will touch 4KBD, let alone BD. I was working in the clean room last weekend as part of an engineering build and when I explained to the operators and other engineers that a BD movie was several orders of magnitude larger than a streaming video and would therefore look a lot better, they were genuinely shocked. This came from them asking why I was looking at Blu-ray.com during my break.

However, as Geoff said, the niche seems strong enough to support this format, even if it is a BD replacement that doesn't see wide support. Laserdisc did pretty well for big releases and older Criterion-esque stuff, and that was with significantly higher pricing than today's movies are.

On that note, I had to hold in a chuckle when one of the engineers mentioned that he goes to Redbox when he can't find stuff to watch on Netflix's streaming service because VOD is $5 for a rental, which he considers expensive for a movie.

[David M]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I too am a bit shocked that so many people on a BD enthuasist site are against 4K.

I'm not, you see it very time something happens that removes people's ability to know they own the best of something. It happened with DVD-> BD and it happened with 768p TVs -> 1080p TVs.

The complaints cease as soon as the new technology becomes affordable.
How many people have you seen lately complaining about how 1080p is pointless and you can't discern the extra resolution, etc etc.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by octagon

Who doesn't want technology to evolve?

Sure, there are people who shrug at this or that evolutionary step but that's not entirely unreasonable. In the early days of personal computing each new generation of processors represented a significant increase in power that was readily apparent to even casual users. But eventually consumers started looking at the new numbers and thinking - quite reasonably - 'well, okay, that's cool and all but what's that really mean to me'.

It's fair to say that each evolutionary step is one step closer to a better world but is it reasonable to expect consumers (or even fairly enthusiastic hobbyists) to pop champagne corks each and every time one of those steps is taken?

i agree 100 percent

Originally Posted by KRW1

Of course technology is going to evolve. What is odder is that some people think that the TV industry is going to stop evolving, after 100 years, at the exact same point at which they themselves have decided not to buy any more gear.

In ten years time, we'll be discussing 120"+ smartscreens and the potential for 8k discs.

(and there'll be a few people saying 4k is enough for them, streaming is the future etc)

4k is the greatest! i would name my first kid 4k.

Originally Posted by singhcr

One thing I was confused about with the 4KBD spec news is what the difference was between bit depth, color space, and dynamic range.

Dynamic range vs. bit depth
Bit depth vs. color space

Long story short, 10-bit color with B.T.2020 color space and HDR means that movies will have a greater range of colors, as well as a greater intensity and more subtle graduations of colors.

If we are thinking about a black and white image, you get much brighter whites and darker blacks (color space + dynamic range?) , as well as many subtle variations of gray in between pure black and pure white (bit depth).

I must say I'm still a bit confused, but the combination of all three things in addition to 4K resolution makes for a very happy singhcr.

Kudos to the 4KBD consortium for taking the time to do it right. We were thinking that they might go with 8-bit 4:2:0 Rec 709 but they showed us!

i'm stopping buying 1080p blu rays now. once i see some examples of true 4k, if they look substantially better than present blu rays, i'm just buying them

Originally Posted by gregmasciola

I doubt that. DVD hasn't even become obsolete yet.
I'll admit, I'm not nearly as excited about this as some people, but I'll probably get a 4k TV/Player when prices become affordable and when the equipment I have at the time stops working. I have no interest, however, in upgrading any Blu-Rays I already have to 4k (unless it's one that was released with a bad transfer). Still, though, this kind of helps prove that physical media isn't going away anytime soon.

dvd is obsolete to me and in a couple years will probably be for everyone else. you can get a blu ray player for 50 bucks and find blu rays for 5 dollars. dvd's are dead

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by bhampton

Hey,

(Sorry I haven't read the whole thread)

I read an article suggesting 4K Blu Ray is a stand against or to fight the popularity of streaming.

Which must be incorrect but it certainly wouldn't work at any rate. Blu Ray has always provided higher quality than streaming but people who like the streaming don't care about that.

no one will ask me but I think it would have been better to let the existing form of blu ray grow and become more of a standard. They give great quality already even with projection screen based home theaters.

If I could buy a blu ray without the DVD and without the digital copies and even sometimes without the 2D copy (and without slipcovers or other silly packaging) it should be a bit cheaper to make and distribute thus should be cheaper to buy.

Oh well... like I said... no one is going to ask me.

-Brian

yeah they should really stop including dvd's and digital copies for sure

Originally Posted by mredman

One thing is certain this will be very bad for DVD. But Blu Ray sales will rise and very likely become the top format finally

also 4k blu rays will be 10-15 bucks in 2 years just like 1080p are now

[PaulDHolloway]

I'm hoping if DVD dies they release all the titles especially more TV on Blu-Ray even if it doesn't look HD. I would still go for more episodes on 1 disc.

[I KEEL YOU]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I too am a bit shocked that so many people on a BD enthuasist site are against 4K.

No need to twist the words so they can fit your agenda.

I am shocked to see that 4K extremists on this site want to murder anyone who isn't prepared to spend their life savings on a 4K player and support the format.

Who the hell here is "against" 4K??? If someone says that they don't think that the format will be a success based on the observation that DVD is still outselling the blu ray format 8 years after the release of blu ray and if they consider the fact that the jump from BD to 4K won't be as significant either technically but ESPECIALLY visually as the jump from DVD to BD, it doesn't mean that they are "against 4K".

[Blu-21]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

soon blu rays will join vhs, laser disc and dvd in tech heaven.

DVD won't die for a while yet let alone Blu-Ray.

[AudioWarrior]

Wonder if they release older movies that have gotten the Atmos treatment like Die Hard? Maybe Disney will give Star Wars a Atmos tack to go along with the new 4k transfer?

BTW, does anybody know how to create your own thread?

[MartinL]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

No need to twist the words so they can fit your agenda.

I am shocked to see that 4K extremists on this site want to murder anyone who isn't prepared to spend their life savings on a 4K player and support the format.

Who the hell here is "against" 4K??? If someone says that they don't think that the format will be a success based on the observation that DVD is still outselling the blu ray format 8 years after the release of blu ray and if they consider the fact that the jump from BD to 4K won't be as significant either technically but ESPECIALLY visually as the jump from DVD to BD, it doesn't mean that they are "against 4K".

There will always be a relatively small group of early adapters who will buy ultra HD sets and blu rays--but for most people, there is little interest in junking blu rays for yet another upgrade. When DVDs came up--there was a significant leap from VHS tapes--plus they were obviously more compact.

Some of us did begin upgrading from DVD to blu ray once the HD format war was settled. But even now, DVDs still outsell blu rays, and frustrating enough, studios are have only within the last couple of years started to accelerate the remastering of films for blu ray release. But even with the standard blu ray--there are still many films that haven't found their way into the HD format.

Of course, don't forget that there's another small group of enthusiasts who contend that physical media is dead and that downloads will be the way of the future. I happened to personally disagree with that--but studios would love it as a way to minimize production and distribution costs.

Personally, I love the blu ray format and have been one of those upgrading my DVD collection--and I think physical media is the only way to go if you love collecting movies.

4k will come and some will buy. I just happen to think --that like BD 3D--it will be a small niche market. My understanding is that sets will need to be 70 inches or larger to even be able to notice the difference between standard blu ray and 4K--and most people are not going to continue to buy newer and larger sets just for that purpose. Most people buy TV sets when they have to ---not just to keep up with the latest technology.

I think there is something else that is also in play here---something that the camera industry is going to with the advent of smart phones which has just about killed off the compact camera market--and is depressing sales of more expensive mirrorless and DSLR cameras-it's the "just good enough" syndrome. Aside from the tech enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest for the clearest and sharpest pictures--most people want a device that gives them decent photos to upload. And I think that is what is happening in the DVD/blu ray/4K blu ray arena.