wrong colors if you playback UHD blu ray with HDR on a non HDR compliant display?

[peterraes]

At a projektor shoot out 4K HDR and non HDR projektors i asked the question "what if you dont want HDR ,and you want to view the discs on a non HDR display"?
The answer was (by professional ISF certified dealers) that you basically end up with the wrong colors and there is no way to correct this!
Annyone else here anny experience with this i would gladly hear about,thx
Plz dont ask why i dont want HDR ,i seen it and the negatives outweighs the positive,just to much to explain here again...had sleepless nights about it,i'll let it rest!

[bruceames]

Yes the colors will be wrong. It's not unwatchable though, the colors are not that much different, only slightly off (depending though, it's not uniform and most look about the same and some a little different).

I'd rather watch UHD than BD on a non-HDR though. You still get some of the benefit.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I'd rather watch UHD than BD on a non-HDR though. You still get some of the benefit.

Have you tested this? I'm curious about opinions as to how much of a difference is noticed.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Have you tested this? I'm curious about opinions as to how much of a difference is noticed.

Yes I have a non-HDR display and tested it on Kingsman, Hitman and Wild. I was actually very impressed with Kingsman. You can still see more highs and lows in the picture and more shadow detail. I didn't know what colors are "correct" going in, but going back and forth the difference was not enough for me to worry about. The trade off in having a more pleasing image was worth it. I did get an HDR TV a few weeks ago though so I haven't gone back to the non-HDR since then and of course UHD looks even better on it.

The movie Wild though didn't impress me at all. That has a much milder HDR grade and actually I preferred the BD. But the movies where they apply a broad brush (like Kingsman, Smurfs 2, Peanuts) will look better on a non-HDR as long as you're not anal about color accuracy. Besides, a few of these movies have slightly different color tones anyway even on an HDR TV so which is the right color? And then you have the lack of calibration standards...

[James Freeman]

It has been discussed vigorously at the AVSForum.

Color accuracy is tied to luminance, if the luminance value is changed the color changes.
If the content was mastered on a 1,000 cd/m2 (nit) monitor and the HDR display is capable to display only 600nit then the colors that tied to 600 and above will distort as the TV will compress the luminance from 1000 to 600.

The absolute worst thing you can do to color is play HDR content on a non-HDR display.
The player has to convert the HDR ST.2084 EOTF curve on the disc to 2.2 Gamma.
Yes, it is the player that does the conversion because the non-HDR (non HDMI 2.0a) TV/Projector has absolutely no clue about ST.2084.

Although a smart algorithm can be applied to change the color value depending on the amount of change so it will look OK at any conversion range.
OK means it will resemble the HDR color to your eye after range conversion, but nowhere near calibration accuracy.
The chances that it is implemented are 0%.

[Geoff D]

But, ironically enough, there are so many differences in the colour reproduction between genuine HDR displays (orange flares, red flares, what is a boy to do?) that the travails of converting HDR to SDR seem minute in comparison, so it's something that I've become rather more sanguine about these last few weeks, especially now that Panasonic are on the case with their adjustable dynamic range on their UHD player.

peterraes: work is being done to define a set of standards which will use the actual SDR grade to create dynamic scene-dependent metadata that can 'tell' the display to remap the HDR image to a more accurate SDR output. More irony incoming: the problem is that you'll need to get a HDR TV with the new dynamic metadata standard (plus another revision to HDMI) installed to actually watch the proper SDR grade!!

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

you'll need to get a new (HDMI 2.1) HDR TV... to actually watch the proper SDR grade!!

Oh SNAP!

[James Freeman]

The question is how tolerable you are about color accuracy.

As of now, the most accurate way to watch non-HDR content is on a calibrated static peak luminance display (not plasma or a projector) and regular bluray.
In other words, your display has to display exactly what the mastering display did in the studio.

The most accurate way to watch HDR content is exactly the same as non-HDR, your display should match the monitor the grading was done on.
Peak luminance should match the mastering monitor (1,000 nit for most movies to this date), 100% screen area should reach peak luminance (no ABL).

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

The question is how tolerable you are about color accuracy.

Fortunately I'm fairly tolerable about that. IMO the difference in quality >> difference in color accuracy.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

....Peak luminance should match the mastering monitor (1,000 nit for most movies to this date), 100% screen area should reach peak luminance (no ABL).

Yes as well as color capability… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post11613507

HDR clip mastered on a Sammy JS9500.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes as well as color capability… [url]
HDR clip mastered on a Sammy JS9500.

Update: The Fox "fire pit" content was mastered on a modified Samsung JS9500 display (which is now common in Hollywood for HDR mastering).

Source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post37563697

I am certain that the peak luminance and % of screen area of this luminance has been tweaked beyond the consumer range.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

...I am certain that the peak luminance and % of screen area of this luminance has been tweaked beyond the consumer range.

Not that much different than for retail Sammy displays, some of the specs of the clip -

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Source:

One month prior…8/14/2015 on this Source: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...+#post11167019

I’m aware of the Fox provider https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post11995419 and am qualified on several Linkedin discussion groups where we discuss advanced imaging concepts which sometimes I’ll carry over to Blu-ray.com….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post11652570

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by peterraes

The answer was (by professional ISF certified dealers) that you basically end up with the wrong colors and there is no way to correct this!

A solution is currently being worked on…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post11948130

Further specific detail into implementation with HEVC….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post11970320

For those liking to stay abreast at the very cutting edge, when I get the time and opportunity, occasionally I’ll post pertinent meeting notes prior to the time the official report being posted on the SMPTE site, like so….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11731292

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For those liking to stay abreast at the very cutting edge, when I get the time and opportunity, occasionally I’ll post pertinent meeting notes prior to the time the official report being posted on the SMPTE site, like so….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11731292

I'm in.
But please start a new thread, for good order's sake.
Are you on AVS Forum too?

I'm hoping the next Oppo player will have the correction in place for those who have non-HDR tvs.

Don't forget that the HDR movie has to have the dynamic metadata with the SDR stream encoded in it.
Currently no HDR movie uses it because ST.2094 is not finished yet, nor any hardware supports dynamic metadata.
Wait till HDMI 2.1 (or 2.0b ?) pops out which should happen by the end of the year.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Are you on AVS Forum too?

Years ago, check their old Insider list.

[bruceames]

I'm hoping the next Oppo player will have the correction in place for those who have non-HDR tvs.

[James Freeman]

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js9500
The JS9500 can do 725 cd/m2 with 2% windows or 380 cd/m2 with 50% window.
The studios probably demanded better performance form Samsung at least for studio mastering work.
One of the biggest concerns for manufacturers is the power consumption of domestic appliances.
The JS9500 tops at 320W which explains the luminance ABL at various window sizes.

I am sure the studios don't care much for power, nor do they knowingly finish their work on a substandard/sub reference monitor.
At least 1000 cd/m2 50% screen area, some fans blowing fresh air from the side...

[nugget2016]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js9500
The JS9500 can do 725 cd/m2 with 2% windows or 380 cd/m2 with 50% window.
The studios probably demanded better performance form Samsung at least for studio mastering work.
One of the biggest concerns for manufacturers is the power consumption of domestic appliances.
The JS9500 tops at 320W which explains the luminance ABL at various window sizes.

I am sure the studios don't care much for power, nor do they knowingly finish their work on a substandard/sub reference monitor.
At least 1000 cd/m2 50% screen area, some fans blowing fresh air from the side...

i dont fully understand what you mean when you say 725 cd/m2 on a 2% window and 380cd/m2 on a 50% window. so your saying if 50% of the screen is producing a bright hdr image the tv can only produce 380 nits out of its 1000?

i have a js8500, so my tv might only push out 200 nits on a 50% screen out of its 600 max? and is there ever full 600 nits content on my tv? when i watched the man in the high castle when there was car headlights taking up basically 95% of the screen it still looked one of the brightest things i've seen, looked around 500 nits when couple of scenes went around 600 (i think) which is the tv limit.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js9500
The JS9500 can do 725 cd/m2 with 2% windows or 380 cd/m2 with 50% window.
The studios probably demanded better performance form Samsung at least for studio mastering work.
One of the biggest concerns for manufacturers is the power consumption of domestic appliances.
The JS9500 tops at 320W which explains the luminance ABL at various window sizes.

I am sure the studios don't care much for power, nor do they knowingly finish their work on a substandard/sub reference monitor.
At least 1000 cd/m2 50% screen area, some fans blowing fresh air from the side...

The rtings measurement was faulty. I've measured 1050 nits on my js9500.