wrong colors if you playback UHD blu ray with HDR on a non HDR compliant display?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Is the 400 nit MaxFALL at the bottom of that post referring to the the whole picture?

It's the average light level for the whole frame, yes. But that doesn't mean that the image is restricted to 400 nits, it means that you can have a 1000-nit specular highlight (like sunlight glinting off a windscreen or something) as long as it averages out against the brightness of the remaining imagery in the frame.

MaxCLL tells the display what the maximum light level of the content is (up to 1000 nits) and MaxFALL tells the display what the average light level of the content is (up to 400 nits). That said, Stacey Spears said he'd found out that the Warners discs appear to be carrying the data for a maximum light level of 4000 nits (as per the original Dolby Vision grade) so **** knows what's going on there.

Hell, perhaps that's why some people (was it Adam?) were experiencing weird goings on regarding the Warners discs looking washed out compared to others that they'd viewed?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's the average light level for the whole frame, yes. But that doesn't mean that the image is restricted to 400 nits, it means that you can have a 1000-nit specular highlight (like sunlight glinting off a windscreen or something) as long as it averages out against the brightness of the remaining imagery in the frame.

MaxCLL tells the display what the maximum light level of the content is (up to 1000 nits) and MaxFALL tells the display what the average light level of the content is (up to 400 nits). That said, Stacey Spears said he'd found out that the Warners discs appear to be carrying the data for a maximum light level of 4000 nits (as per the original Dolby Vision grade) so **** knows what's going on there.

Hell, perhaps that's why some people (was it Adam?) were experiencing weird goings on regarding the Warners discs looking washed out compared to others that they'd viewed?

If the max 'average' for the whole picture is 400 nits, then the max area that 1000 nits can be used is 40% of the picture (while the rest of the picture is completely dark). Thanks for the info.

[HeavyHitter]

Has it been determined if a future UHD BD player will be able to strip out HDR while properly retaining/remapping the wider color gamut and 10 bit? Is this going to even be possible?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Has it been determined if a future UHD BD player will be able to strip out HDR while properly retaining/remapping the wider color gamut and 10 bit? Is this going to even be possible?

I seriously doubt it

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

I seriously doubt it

That might be depressing.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

That might be depressing.

They just don't care about this. They want you to buy a new HDR TV, simple as that and soon you will find only those in stores.

You want SDR? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

You want the original theatrical color grading? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

They just don't care about this. They want you to buy a new HDR TV, simple as that and soon you will find only those in stores.

You want SDR? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

You want the original theatrical color grading? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

Since when?!?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

They just don't care about this. They want you to buy a new HDR TV, simple as that and soon you will find only those in stores.

You want SDR? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

You want the original theatrical color grading? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

Sad but true.

My tv was built November 2014. It's out of date, out of stock, & is irrelevant by today's standards. Oh & it also carries an XBR badge & cost me $5K

So... Yeah.. SDR for life!

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Since when?!?

Well at least for DI movies it's true

For catalog titles not so much.....

[peterraes]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Has it been determined if a future UHD BD player will be able to strip out HDR while properly retaining/remapping the wider color gamut and 10 bit? Is this going to even be possible?

I recall reading a piece about the SDR data beeing packed alongside the HDR data so one would be able to choice,just cant recall where i read it.
Seems possible since i doubt the industry would miss out on potential UHD blu ray buyers cause most of them (movie fanatics mainly) have a 4K TV or projektor but not a HDR compatible one.
Now they also may think we all gonna buy new sets cause of HDR(not me,i hate HDR,i'm a purists worst kindbut they must realize that is not gonna happen cause most own a 4K set just over a year or so and are not about to change that rapidly wich makes sense honestly(financially).
Wait for Dolby Vision UHD blues and pray they get it right ,4K with WCG and 10 bit,that's it,leave the unnatural boosting of brightness and contrast out of it and i'll jump on the bandwagon.

[bootman]

Sounds like we have a market for high end 4k video processors than can do the up and down color conversions well enough to still deliver an accurate picture.

I'm sure companies like Lumagen are going to come up with products.

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_details

Of course only you can decide if this makes more sense than a display upgrade.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by peterraes

I recall reading a piece about the SDR data beeing packed alongside the HDR data so one would be able to choice,just cant recall where i read it.
Seems possible since i doubt the industry would miss out on potential UHD blu ray buyers cause most of them (movie fanatics mainly) have a 4K TV or projektor but not a HDR compatible one.
Now they also may think we all gonna buy new sets cause of HDR(not me,i hate HDR,i'm a purists worst kindbut they must realize that is not gonna happen cause most own a 4K set just over a year or so and are not about to change that rapidly wich makes sense honestly(financially).
Wait for Dolby Vision UHD blues and pray they get it right ,4K with WCG and 10 bit,that's it,leave the unnatural boosting of brightness and contrast out of it and i'll jump on the bandwagon.

According to one commentator, the industry is "split" on the idea of proper SDR mapping: http://www.screenplaysmag.com/2015/1...uality-issues/

There are systems that can allow SDR and HDR on one disc, but given the lack of bandwidth (no 100GB discs) at this point in time I think the Dual Stream encode is a non-starter. Dolby Vision also made a big deal about having separate SDR and HDR layers, which is something that they still mention when asked, but they've kept it quiet that the version of DV used on UHD Blu-ray will have the mandatory HRD10 as one layer and the DV as the other layer - so no SDR layer is included.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Has it been determined if a future UHD BD player will be able to strip out HDR while properly retaining/remapping the wider color gamut and 10 bit? Is this going to even be possible?

A set of standards to define the use of dynamic scene-dependent downconversion metadata is being worked on as we speak (SMPTE 2094, as mentioned in the article linked above), but it won't be finished in time to be included in any current or imminent UHD hardware. It looks as if players equipped with Dolby Vision will probably have 2094 included by virtue of coincidental timing, but even if someone waits for those players they'll still need to have discs authored with the relevant 2094 metadata to get the proper SDR transform, so current discs won't work with that system anyway.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

A set of standards to define the use of dynamic scene-dependent downconversion metadata is being worked on as we speak (SMPTE 2094, as mentioned in the article linked above)....

For an update (March 2nd) progress note and estimated finish date, see bar graph....
https://kws.smpte.org/higherlogic/ws...project_id=294

As I posted back in July 2015 on the 4K Movies Releases thread (to remind, after the panoramic shot I posted as an example as to the value of HDR for some stadium venues on a bring sunny afternoon [England v. Wales rugby match, which you correctly disclosed ),

the ‘ST 2094’ is about dynamic metadata (content dependent and can vary frame by frame or scene by scene). There are 4 applications in the 2094 suite of documents. For those not privy to the mostly weekly tecoms of the working group for the 2094s, this is some of the tone mapping math for Application #1(which I personally favor)…..

[Richard Paul]

I think the HDR timeline might look like this:

2014: SMPTE 2084 added to HEVC
2015: SMPTE 2084 used in consumer products
2016: HLG added to HEVC
2017: HLG used in consumer products
2018: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp added to HEVC
2019: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp used in consumer products

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

They just don't care about this. They want you to buy a new HDR TV, simple as that and soon you will find only those in stores.

But that's the whole beauty of technological advancement.
What, you want it to stop and stay in the dark ages?

Yes, there is pressure from manufacturers to sale, but also from scientists to improve image quality.
Natural balance will find it's way.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

But that's the whole beauty of technological advancement.
What, you want it to stop and stay in the dark ages?

Yes, there is pressure from manufacturers to sale, but also from scientists to improve image quality.
Natural balance will find it's way.

Yeah all 4k pre HDR TV's are so like 1983 crt's total dark ages tech

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

They just don't care about this. They want you to buy a new HDR TV, simple as that and soon you will find only those in stores.

You want SDR? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

You want the original theatrical color grading? They have a format for you: it's called Blu-ray (1080p)

I sure hope they do come out with a player that will strip the HDR. It would be fun comparing the before/after difference on an HDR TV as well as giving those with SDR TVs what they need.

If it were possible then there would be a market for it, certainly (Oppo would care). Both from SDR owners and from purists who don't want to see HDR on any catalog.

[James Freeman]

The point is that advancement is inevitable even if it leaves a rather new technology redundant and irritates many last-gen (or early adopters) customers.

To answer HeavyHitter question,

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Has it been determined if a future UHD BD player will be able to strip out HDR while properly retaining/remapping the wider color gamut and 10 bit? Is this going to even be possible?

It will most certainly be an option in upcoming devices (Players) in a more than palatable way.
But it is already been determined by SMPTE that a less random way will be used which will be defined in ST.2094.
The irony is that you'll need to buy yet another new TV (or update firmware) to have SDR from HDR according to ST.2094.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I think the HDR timeline might look like this:

2014: SMPTE 2084 added to HEVC
2015: SMPTE 2084 used in consumer products
2016: HLG added to HEVC
2017: HLG used in consumer products
2018: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp added to HEVC
2019: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp used in consumer products

You reckon it'll be that long before 2094 gets added to HEVC? Day-um. Them wheels sure turn slowly, and I don't feel like such a mungbean for wanting to get the Panasonic player now if proper SDR transforms are still 3 years away.

Of course, if one had their tin-foil hat on, they could argue that by that stage the usage of SDR 4K TVs for primary viewing purposes will have greatly diminished, so will there even be a significant user base that needs the scene-dependent SDR transform?

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You reckon it'll be that long before 2094 gets added to HEVC?

I think that SMPTE 2094 will get added to the HEVC draft this year but that the next version of HEVC could get released in 2018. Granted they might release the next version of HEVC in 2017 if there are enough companies pushing for it.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Of course, if one had their tin-foil hat on, they could argue that by that stage the usage of SDR 4K TVs for primary viewing purposes will have greatly diminished, so will there even be a significant user base that needs the scene-dependent SDR transform?

I think that a good case can be made for dynamic metadata for many years since it allows HDR video to look good on SDR displays which in 2019 will be at least 80% of the market.