"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

This is how it starts. Some douche know it all (kris) says that not everything needs Lossless. Then the studios see that the consumer is ok with lower quality, so we see lower bitrate used per encode. And then we see more things cut/lost in the translation because it was never standardized. This is 100% UNACCEPTABLE. Either do it right, or just do not bother. Seriously, grow some balls, Lossless audio on EVERY disc is ALREADY a reality on every studio but warner, they do not get a special pass to screw blu-ray supporters.

Maybe you should write a letter to Warner with the same amount of tact and see how seriously they take you

Did you even read what I said? I firmly believe that uncompressed or lossless soundtracks should be included on every release, there is no reason not to have them with BD's bandwidth. I never said otherwise and I continually point this out in every WB disc review for titles that don't have lossless.

My comments simply said that calling high bitrate DD soundtracks utter crap simply because they're not lossless is ridiculous. The rest of the crap you insinuate has nothing to do with what I posted.

[Kris Deering]

You forgot 1.4 Mb/s lossless stereo Laserdiscs which existed many years earlier than that and have given movielovers lossless sound for 15+ years. That's 705 kb/s sound per channel compared to 640 DD's 128 kb/s per channel

I was only referring to DD in my post and its comparable bitrates in past formats. Even DTS had higher bitrates than DD, so I realize there were other sound formats with higher rates.

Keep in mind though that packaging is different so DTS at one bitrate isn't the same as Dolby at another. So the numbers game doesn't quite work.

PCM is the ideal, especially at full resolution, since it takes out all of the variables and delivers the goods untouched. But it does take up considerably more space.

[dobyblue]

I didn't think PCM had a full resolution.
7.1 DXD would be 89.088 Mbps.

[dobyblue]

Higher bitrate DD soundtracks might not be utter crap, but the fact that they're not Dolby TrueHD soundtracks is definitely utter crap.

WB are the worst offender because of the section of their HD site that touts lossless audio.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I didn't think PCM had a full resolution.
7.1 DXD would be 89.088 Mbps.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

PCM or LPCM is what all codecs become when they are uncompressed and/or decoded.

i.e. PCM has full resolution potential, but as everyone knows, what goes in will be the resolution that comes out.

Paul

[Mystery Clock]

A question for those (needlessly) slamming Kris for his accurate comments:

How many actual films have you seen in theaters that have lossless soundtracks and playback?

Think about that for a second. I'll wait.



With the domination of Dolby Digital, dts and SDDS I would guess that the number is lower than you think. And if lossy compression is, in many situations, good enough for the "theater reference" presentation, then why the big beef about it on BD?

Now, that being said I do still think that, given a choice, lossless is always better -- but that lossy is still often good enough for a lot of folks. And there really is no excuse not to offer lossless on BD in this day and age.

-John

[Teazle]

Who on here is saying "utter crap" anyway? For my part I used the phrase "flat and insipid" by way of contrasting how DD's 128 kb/s/channel makes the music in film out to sound as against e.g. the 705 kb/s/ch of CD-grade PCM. How can this be such a controversial thing to say?

I took it as obvious that the parts of film that benefit most noticeably from lossless audio are the sustained musical stretches -- overtures, interludes, songs, themes during the opening credits -- the places where the audience has nothing to do but sit there and listen -- for the same reason that record albums benefit from lossless audio.

Putting music into a film doesn't instantly reduce the audience's expectations of fidelity. Who would have thought otherwise?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Paul H

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

PCM or LPCM is what all codecs become when they are uncompressed and/or decoded.

i.e. PCM has full resolution potential, but as everyone knows, what goes in will be the resolution that comes out.

Paul

What is "full resolution potential"?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Mystery Clock

A question for those (needlessly) slamming Kris for his accurate comments:

How many actual films have you seen in theaters that have lossless soundtracks and playback?

Think about that for a second. I'll wait.

No need to wait, how about asking "when was the last time you went to the movies" followed by "why did you stop going"

My answer - Iron Man, because I couldn't wait, but I wish I did have the will power because it'll sound WAY better in my HT room.

I've skipped on so many movies just because of the audio quality.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

What is "full resolution potential"?

If the recorded source contains full resolution (lossless) information, uncompressed PCM/LPCM is the native accepted consumer standard (digital-language) that delivers it.

[dobyblue]

"full resolution" doesn't make sense though, because the master source comes in so many different bitrates and sampling rates.

Sometimes the master can be 16/48, sometimes it can be 24/192 (music only)
I'm pretty sure Richard Casey's next project will record the source material at 24/192, hence "full resolution" PCM would be 24/192.

In the case of Spider-man 3, full resolution is 24/48.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Mystery Clock

How many actual films have you seen in theaters that have lossless soundtracks and playback?

Think about that for a second. I'll wait.

How many actual films have you seen in theaters that actual display 1080p resolution? Many theaters with uncalibrated projectors, worn prints, etc. are lucky to be showing at 1K equivalent or not much better than upscaled DVD.

The point being theaters aren't always reference points for optimal home theater.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Mystery Clock

A question for those (needlessly) slamming Kris for his accurate comments:

How many actual films have you seen in theaters that have lossless soundtracks and playback?

Think about that for a second. I'll wait.

Mmmm as for me, I have seen several 70mm 6-channel magnetic track films. I you don't consider near 1/2 inch analog tape audio running at 22.5 ips, recorded by the great Hollywood 60's, 70s and 80's engineers, lossless, that's your prerogative..

[Teazle]

[deleted a poor attempt at a joke here]

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

"full resolution" doesn't make sense though, because the master source comes in so many different bitrates and sampling rates.

Sometimes the master can be 16/48, sometimes it can be 24/192 (music only)
I'm pretty sure Richard Casey's next project will record the source material at 24/192, hence "full resolution" PCM would be 24/192.

In the case of Spider-man 3, full resolution is 24/48.

My understanding and relatively speaking, "full resolution" can describe the total information capture of the source.

i.e. The resolution that exists on the recording is duplicated (losslessly reproduced). Whatever the bitrate or sampling rate is, it would be reproduced.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Paul H

My understanding and relatively speaking, "full resolution" can describe the total information capture of the source.

i.e. The resolution that exists on the recording is duplicated (losslessly reproduced). Whatever the bitrate or sampling rate is, it would be reproduced.

Far too subjective to label though, not an accurate term at all, nor is it used.

Source needs to be stated, master needs to be stated.

[mark antony]

Well WB clearly haven't been listening, Bill Hunt has confirmed that Speed Racer is a BD-25 with standard dolby 5.1 (not tru-hd). You can't tell me that one's been in the production pipe for month's & months as it's only recently been in cinema's.

The only reason (apart from the few fan's) that people would have bought this title would be as a demo-disc, and now it's not gonna even be that!

M

[Woody]

Originally Posted by mark antony

Well WB clearly haven't been listening, Bill Hunt has confirmed that Speed Racer is a BD-25 with standard dolby 5.1 (not tru-hd). You can't tell me that one's been in the production pipe for month's & months as it's only recently been in cinema's.

The only reason (apart from the few fan's) that people would have bought this title would be as a demo-disc, and now it's not gonna even be that!

M

I would be very shocked if SR had just DD.

[mark antony]

"Unfortunately, we've confirmed that the Blu-ray is a BD-25 with just Dolby Digital 5.1 audio rather than TrueHD, which is a real shame. If ever a film deserved BD-50/TrueHD treatment on Blu-ray, it's this one. I suppose, however, in light of how badly the film tanked, it shouldn't be unexpected"

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by mark antony

"Unfortunately, we've confirmed that the Blu-ray is a BD-25 with just Dolby Digital 5.1 audio rather than TrueHD, which is a real shame. If ever a film deserved BD-50/TrueHD treatment on Blu-ray, it's this one. I suppose, however, in light of how badly the film tanked, it shouldn't be unexpected"

(head shaking)

A BD25 and two DVD? Talk about a phone-it-in effort.

Gary