"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

The shot he chose of the children is a stupid example. No pores, no wrinkles... LOL, they are 8-10 years old. Their faces are smooth and blemish free.... Well I HOPE SO, they are only ten years old. Duh.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Such references [AP, samples, etc] are also becoming hugely important in mastering titles from the original CN or IP these days. I have seen already too many masters even of newer features that were made without such references and that have nothing to do with the film. Look no further than AMERICAN GANGSTER or GALAXY QUEST.

Is there an issue with Galaxy Quest, besides the opening 20 min that were opened up from 1.85?

[Robert Harris]

While Torsten is visiting over here, I'll also add my vote to a job beautifully performed. Well done, sir!

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Case in point: I had a debate with a "reviewer" over this [and Penton, don't send me mails protecting this site's very own, he is not among of them] who claimed noone [regardless whether you professionally work in this field or are a layman] can really say whether TRAFFIC is an upconvert unless one was present during the transfer. Well, if that were true QCs would, according to that theory, be totally useless. Film can be exposed, developed and copied in all sorts of ways down the line, with many changes that can affect the gradation, density and depth, color registration and detail in the shadows. What is not part of the attributes is a change in the pixel structure - since film doesn't have any. TRAFFIC on HD DVD has a very clearly noticeable corruption of the pixel structure that as it presents itself can only stem from one course of action: a manipulation of the natively lower pixel count to a much higher one - i.e. an upconversion from a master [very likely the NTSC] to a new, DUB in 1080 @ [very, very likely] 23.976psf. The pixels on TRAFFIC [again, only the HD-DVD version issued in the US] instead of being naturally sharp and distinguished are very soft, have no distiguished edges and incorporate [and this is important] no color and grayscale information that is unique to themselves, rather inheriting along with their own a mix from other pixels surrounding it. This is what leads to significant loss in accurate color registration, natural sharpness and depth.

By the way, to conclude the story, the "reviewer" did not change his stance, saying later in a forum I "had a history" and that this degradation is not due to an upconversion, but solely to the nature of the film elements and the maximum of the film's potential. The STUDIO CANAL HD DVD came out, with a much better picture quality, and NO corrupted pixel structure. Then the German Blu-ray came out, based on an HDCAM @ 25psf 1080 DUB. That master was fine, too. Neither release was commented on by the "reviewer".

Oh I remember that happening - it was rather embarassing for the reviewer in question.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What the heck is going on here? We’ve got you, Blaumann and Oliver K. all showing up on this thread at almost the same time!

Earlier today I was tempted to write that we are taking over this thread while everyone is asleep over there

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Did they declare some National holiday in Germany today because of Bayern’s win yesterday?…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5djtS36PuM

This time you brought it up I think it was a great fight by BM and another goal from Robben who was never better than this year with BM. In any case if Bayern don't win the Champions League it will not be due to lack of trying!

What did you think about the Barca-Inter game?
Barca did not look too good but still one of the Inter goals was offside and also Barca was denied a penalty - could easily have been 2:2, 3:3 or 3:2.

I think this will be difficult next week for Barcelona and I am not happy that my prediction that Inter would be a more difficult opponent came through to that degree.

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

While Torsten is visiting over here, I'll also add my vote to a job beautifully performed. Well done, sir!

Thanx, Robert & all. The support from Lee Kline over at CC made this possible.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Earlier today I was tempted to write that we are taking over this thread while everyone is asleep over there

German sneak attack while we sleep? Ruh roh...



The sad part of all this is that I've never even SEEN M. Like a couple other classics (Cold Hand, for example), I have a feeling I'll be extremely pleased that I've waited until the, er, "beyond high definition" version.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Hello Stranger !

Didn't you know ? All Bavarian beer is free today, on the house of BM

Well, it’s certainly nice to have you back for some good conversation.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

This time you brought it up I think it was a great fight by BM and another goal from Robben who was never better than this year with BM. In any case if Bayern don't win the Champions League it will not be due to lack of trying!

What did you think about the Barca-Inter game?

I missed the game itself.
I just saw the post game highlights and the way they portrayed it was that Inter closed down Messi and in so doing, shut down Barca. The result was actually quite surprising to me.

I’m beginning to think that the first 20min. of the Arsenal-Barca match was the greatest exhibition of domineering offensive prowess and ball control that I will ever see, or at least for a long, long time. In hindsight, I wish I had kept it on my DVR.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Earlier today I was tempted to write that we are taking over this thread while everyone is asleep over there

All you need is to bring one beautiful Fräulein with you guys to the thread here and you would have as all surrendering like school boys in a matter of minutes.

[Penton-Man]

I’m just wondering if any cinephiles out there are avid Human Target fans? (a guilty pleasure of mine)…
http://www.fox.com/humantarget/

as a couple minutes or so into the Season Finale, did anyone recognize who Christopher Chance introduced himself as to the detective in the barr ?…
http://www.fox.com/watch/humantarget/77961301001

I normally begin to fall asleep during many television shows but, that was like a jolt from the past, I almost fell off the couch. I wonder if there is any back story on that?

[Hep]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

By the way, for those followers of “Xylon” who refused to reward the studio that gave you Baraka on Blu-ray by refusing to purchase the disc since, how did “Xylon” term it… something like ‘the only thing good about Baraka is the soundtrack’, is that a more or less correct quote Monkey?

Anyway, don’t ever say I didn’t do anything for you guys.
Here’s a heads-up for tomorrow evening…

http://www.americancinematheque.com/...010.htm#BARAKA

Make sure you bring your cameras.

Awe crap, I'm too late...it's probably for the best, the plane ticket would have negated any good I did on this beautiful Earth Day (runs off and hits play on some Baraka bliss).

[captveg]

Two things:

1) Torsten, thanks for your great insight into M on criterionforum.org. It appalls me that people would be suspect of your intentions over there, such as being a PR spinmeister. Ludicrous. Over here you will not be treated so shabbily, IMO. (Well, at least in the Insider section of the boards).

2) Penton, thanks for the apparent quick work in granting my earlier Jason and the Argonauts request. https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Jason...Blu-ray/10998/

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

The existing ROBOCOP on the market is a native master, no doubt, though not a perfect one [for reasons of lack of color depth and color timing]. As for TRAFFIC, that one is a "classic".

One thing to keep in mind is that a film element with a very grainy image, little gradation/depth [intentionally made or not] and the manipulation of the resolution of a master or transfer tape to achieve a higher amount of pixels than the native one are two very different things and can be told apart from another. Now, many of you will say now "why is he telling us this - of course they are different". The problem is that some who order for distribution, review products or sit in position in broadcast, do not know or can tell the difference when confronted with such a Master/DUB. Both exhibit or suggest low resolution [an effect Soderbergh indeed intended on film] but only one of the two comes with a corrupted pixel structure "in its wake".

Case in point: I had a debate with a "reviewer" over this [and Penton, don't send me mails protecting this site's very own, he is not among of them] who claimed noone [regardless whether you professionally work in this field or are a layman] can really say whether TRAFFIC is an upconvert unless one was present during the transfer. Well, if that were true QCs would, according to that theory, be totally useless. Film can be exposed, developed and copied in all sorts of ways down the line, with many changes that can affect the gradation, density and depth, color registration and detail in the shadows. What is not part of the attributes is a change in the pixel structure - since film doesn't have any. TRAFFIC on HD DVD has a very clearly noticeable corruption of the pixel structure that as it presents itself can only stem from one course of action: a manipulation of the natively lower pixel count to a much higher one - i.e. an upconversion from a master [very likely the NTSC] to a new, DUB in 1080 @ [very, very likely] 23.976psf. The pixels on TRAFFIC [again, only the HD-DVD version issued in the US] instead of being naturally sharp and distinguished are very soft, have no distiguished edges and incorporate [and this is important] no color and grayscale information that is unique to themselves, rather inheriting along with their own a mix from other pixels surrounding it. This is what leads to significant loss in accurate color registration, natural sharpness and depth.

By the way, to conclude the story, the "reviewer" did not change his stance, saying later in a forum I "had a history" and that this degradation is not due to an upconversion, but solely to the nature of the film elements and the maximum of the film's potential. The STUDIO CANAL HD DVD came out, with a much better picture quality, and NO corrupted pixel structure. Then the German Blu-ray came out, based on an HDCAM @ 25psf 1080 DUB. That master was fine, too. Neither release was commented on by the "reviewer". The new Universal Blu-ray is a new, native 1080 master - though someone should provide the colorist with a bigger monitor - the added sharpness from the SPIRIT is everywhere, almost like APOLLO 13. So, I guess, working in a profession does make a difference compared to merely commenting on one. But that is not the problem. If more people were made aware as to how to distinguish these attributes and what to look for, releases like TRAFFIC and others would never have happened.

Awesome post! Thank you for taking the time

[Vincent Pereira]

Originally Posted by DenonCI

...the Universal release of "Traffic" on HD DVD was accused of being an upconvert, but that film has never had a HD "look," so it's hard to say if it was or not.

Except that the overseas release of TRAFFIC DOES have an "HD look", and so does the HD broadcast version, and it looked like film when I saw it projected in a theater.

Vincent

[Vincent Pereira]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

The shot he chose of the children is a stupid example. No pores, no wrinkles... LOL, they are 8-10 years old. Their faces are smooth and blemish free.... Well I HOPE SO, they are only ten years old. Duh.

Not only that, they are being photographed with a telephoto lens from a moving vehicle, and the vehicle they are in is moving, as well. Plus I believe the shot is in slow-motion. You're NOT going to get perfect focus in such a case. I think I made this very point in that same thread somewhere.

Vincent

[Jeff Kleist]

My memory of Traffic is limited to a very hazy memory of seeing it in the theater which is mostly made up of color filters before anyone asks me to chime in.

[Vincent Pereira]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

My memory of Traffic is limited to a very hazy memory of seeing it in the theater which is mostly made up of color filters before anyone asks me to chime in.

The look of the film was all over the place- some parts were harsh and grainy with really blown-out contrast, others were super-sharp and normally exposed. As the film cuts between "storylines', so to speak, the photographic style changes, as well. But it most certainly did not ever look like standard-definition video.

Vincent

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

There's a lot of people who are convinced a lot of older, cheaper or indy films are upconverts because they don't look like what they expect an HD film to look

Originally Posted by sharkshark

...yeah, I've been going through "WW II in HD", and can't help but think that some people would be disappointed that handheld footage from Tarawa doesn't look like Planet Earth

Planet Earth and other BBC-made documentaries are up-converts too.

[Jeff Kleist]

Planet Earth is all over the place with multiple kinds of cameras. It's not the same thing that we're talking about where a 480p master is processed straight up instead of doing a real HD master