"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Jeff Kleist]

The issue with the bonds has been forwarded to the proper people

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

The issue with the bonds has been forwarded to the proper people

Good to hear that you’re already working it on your end, as the “proper-est” people that oversee the “proper” people are in Korea for Blu-ray meetings…….as we speak.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by jon s

AVS Forum members are reporting that none of the Bond movies work with the Pioneer BDP05FD or BDP051 Blu-Ray players either...

and I own a Pioneer too...

Penton, this seems to be the biggest bag of hurt for Blu-ray fans...movies not working out of the shrink wrap. From an outsiders point of view, it seems as if there is a disconnect between the software developers and the hardware manufacturers - like no QA at all except the PS3.

My issues: I cannot play The Matrix with my Pioneer player and I am having issues with the Bond films too. My player crashes when I switch between the standard and extended cuts with the latest Universal comedy offering. At this point I am not watching any Blu-ray movies until these problems are fixed. I have an $800 boat anchor (BDP-051).

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You must have better hours than I do.

Plus, these days with the economy the way it is, the only drinkin I plan on doin is 2 bucks Chuck Cab purchased from Trader Joe’s.

Yeah we've all took a hit in the market lately, fortuneately my investments
only lost about 10%, maybe a little more, which is better than the market
overall so I'm not taking that trip to the Golden Gate just yet...

I'll drink a Guinness and a shot of Jack for you....

[Jeff Kleist]

Several companies have started up testing centers to try to make this a thing of the past

If this is like the problem with Iron Man though, it likely isn't a problem that could be forseen

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Several companies have started up testing centers to try to make this a thing of the past

If this is like the problem with Iron Man though, it likely isn't a problem that could be forseen

This is in my opinion one of the biggest reason why the ps3 is the way to go...imo

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Plus, these days with the economy the way it is, the only drinkin I plan on doin is 2 bucks Chuck Cab purchased from Trader Joe’s.

Oh, you mean the wine my old lady uses for cooking...

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Oh, you mean the wine my old lady uses for cooking...

try guinness as a marinade for steaks....works real good...

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Several companies have started up testing centers to try to make this a thing of the past

If this is like the problem with Iron Man though, it likely isn't a problem that could be forseen

Do you think that as Ethernet ports become more of a standard with Blu-ray players, this will help the situation too (proactive updates when problems are discovered during testing)?

In the meantime, I was thinking that the studios should include an updated master firmware CD-ROM with each new Blu-ray movie if a problem is discovered during QA. The disk should be attached to the piece of paper that warns to update firmware (perhaps listing affected players). The idea is a program would launch when the CD-ROM is inserted into the BD player. The purpose of the program is to identify the users specific player, check the firmware version, and update if necessary.

[Jeff Kleist]

Originally Posted by Sith

This is in my opinion one of the biggest reason why the ps3 is the way to go...imo

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but

In my frank opinion, all of this "get a PS3", "get a PS3" is not constructive for Blu-ray in general. PS3 is a money loser for Sony if you don't buy games, and no matter how good of a Blu-ray player you may find it, people need to face up that not everyone wants a game system as the hub of their entertainment center (or an HTPC, or anything but a standalone), in fact the vast majority don't. Many new standalones now feature equivalent performance to the PS3 and a few slightly superior video quality for around the same money, and very shortly it's going to be well down below it.

No one is arguing the value in the PS3, just that it's simply not what the vast majority of the public is going to want. I personally don't want to play Blu-rays or DVDs on my game systems, just like I don't want to play CDs on a DVD player. I want to enjoy lossless audio on my nice receiver and not drop $500 (to get the model I'd want to upgrade to) on a new one.

To achieve commodity pricing, the CEs have to be on board and making money, enough money that they put the money and resources behind it, and achieve the volume required to drop prices, which everyone wants. Ideally everyone wants to get to that $149-199 butter zone where there's a good margin and a lot of people willing to buy.

While PS3 owners are the largest single demographic of people buying Blu-rays right now, they aren't going to be 2 years from now.


Mostimportantly it does not solve people's immediate problem of "this disc doesn't work on the deck I paid $300 for". Chances are that if people had wanted a PS3, they would have bought one

Just think to yourself how long it's been since you've heard of a DVD not playing on a certain model of player. The same will be true for Blu-ray in the near future.

Let's move forward together, to each their own, and when someone stumbles, we pick them up and dust them off together instead of telling them that if they had velcro shoes they wouldn't trip over untied laces

[Jeff Kleist]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Do you think that as Ethernet ports become more of a standard with Blu-ray players, this will help the situation too (proactive updates when problems are discovered during testing)?

Definately. Also making a standard wireless module sold AT A LOW PRICE. It's about $15 to add WiFi at manufacture, so $29.99 or so should take care of margin and a bit of profit. I'm intrigued by the new WiFi SD cards for digital cameras, and I'm curious whether the technology can be adapted to suck down firmware updates to the player once they're cheaper. Piles of people don't want to run Cat5 around the living room.

In the meantime, I was thinking that the studios should include an updated master firmware CD-ROM with each new Blu-ray movie if a problem is discovered during QA. The disk should be attached to the piece of paper that warns to update firmware (perhaps listing affected players). The idea is a program would launch when the CD-ROM is inserted into the BD player. The purpose of the program is to identify the users specific player, check the firmware version, and update if necessary.

There is no master firmware file. and a lot of manufacturers use the same file name for the firmware for different players. It's simply impractical to do so, especially when there are dozens of players out there already. If they knew which players were affected when they shipped it, they never would have shipped it in the first place and fixed the problem on the disc itself.

[micks_address]

Wow Jeff, i couldnt dissagree with you more on this.. if You think that ps3 owners wont be the biggest buyer of blu-rays in 2 years time i'd be amazed.. how many standalone blu-ray players are out there at the moment? would the ratio be like 15-1 ps3 versus standalone?

show me a blu-ray player with equivalent loading time for blu-ray? is there one?

i hear what you're saying about people wanting a standalone, but would i swap on my ps3 which has my digital music collection, all our photo's, home videos and the odd game that we play on it for a standalone unit that in terms on performance (apart from bitstreaming/analogue outs) is going to be worse?

i think you also undervalue the important role the ps3 has played in getting blu-ray to a wider audience. Without it I'm not sure we'd be where we are now. It has always irked me when i see comments like 'this movie will appeal to the ps3 demographic' to me its a load of nonsense..

i have about 5 ps3 games, and a heck of a lot blu-rays with more on the way all the time.. i wanted a blu-ray player first and foremost when i was buying - at the time the ps3 was the only one that offered me entry into the market..

i also dont buy this idea of the magic bullet price of 200 dollars.. who wants to buy a lesser brand player just cause its below the 200 dollar price point? A lot of people like well known brand names... like Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, Pioneer etc..

Maybe when we see a player from these manufacturers we'll see standalone's grow quicker.

as far as disc issues - Studio's need time to learn - especially the liked of paramount and universal but you'd think the likes of mgm would know better -
microsoft get hammered about software glitches.. it really is unacceptable to release product to market like this..

but then i guess we're probably still at the early adopter stage of the market.. so hopefully before things are mainstream all this will be sorted.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but

In my frank opinion, all of this "get a PS3", "get a PS3" is not constructive for Blu-ray in general. PS3 is a money loser for Sony if you don't buy games, and no matter how good of a Blu-ray player you may find it, people need to face up that not everyone wants a game system as the hub of their entertainment center (or an HTPC, or anything but a standalone), in fact the vast majority don't. Many new standalones now feature equivalent performance to the PS3 and a few slightly superior video quality for around the same money, and very shortly it's going to be well down below it.

No one is arguing the value in the PS3, just that it's simply not what the vast majority of the public is going to want. I personally don't want to play Blu-rays or DVDs on my game systems, just like I don't want to play CDs on a DVD player. I want to enjoy lossless audio on my nice receiver and not drop $500 (to get the model I'd want to upgrade to) on a new one.

To achieve commodity pricing, the CEs have to be on board and making money, enough money that they put the money and resources behind it, and achieve the volume required to drop prices, which everyone wants. Ideally everyone wants to get to that $149-199 butter zone where there's a good margin and a lot of people willing to buy.

While PS3 owners are the largest single demographic of people buying Blu-rays right now, they aren't going to be 2 years from now.


Mostimportantly it does not solve people's immediate problem of "this disc doesn't work on the deck I paid $300 for". Chances are that if people had wanted a PS3, they would have bought one

Just think to yourself how long it's been since you've heard of a DVD not playing on a certain model of player. The same will be true for Blu-ray in the near future.

Let's move forward together, to each their own, and when someone stumbles, we pick them up and dust them off together instead of telling them that if they had velcro shoes they wouldn't trip over untied laces

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by micks_address

Wow Jeff, i couldnt dissagree with you more on this.. if You think that ps3 owners wont be the biggest buyer of blu-rays in 2 years time i'd be amazed.. how many standalone blu-ray players are out there at the moment? would the ratio be like 15-1 ps3 versus standalone?

show me a blu-ray player with equivalent loading time for blu-ray? is there one?

i hear what you're saying about people wanting a standalone, but would i swap on my ps3 which has my digital music collection, all our photo's, home videos and the odd game that we play on it for a standalone unit that in terms on performance (apart from bitstreaming/analogue outs) is going to be worse?

i think you also undervalue the important role the ps3 has played in getting blu-ray to a wider audience. Without it I'm not sure we'd be where we are now. It has always irked me when i see comments like 'this movie will appeal to the ps3 demographic' to me its a load of nonsense..

i have about 5 ps3 games, and a heck of a lot blu-rays with more on the way all the time.. i wanted a blu-ray player first and foremost when i was buying - at the time the ps3 was the only one that offered me entry into the market..

i also dont buy this idea of the magic bullet price of 200 dollars.. who wants to buy a lesser brand player just cause its below the 200 dollar price point? A lot of people like well known brand names... like Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, Pioneer etc..

Maybe when we see a player from these manufacturers we'll see standalone's grow quicker.

as far as disc issues - Studio's need time to learn - especially the liked of paramount and universal but you'd think the likes of mgm would know better -
microsoft get hammered about software glitches.. it really is unacceptable to release product to market like this..

but then i guess we're probably still at the early adopter stage of the market.. so hopefully before things are mainstream all this will be sorted.

+1

From the point of view of a consumer who wants to be sure he or she has the player that is most likely to be able to play every new BD release, the PS3 is the only way to go. This is my advice to people who are considering buying a player, and I don't see how it is possible to deny it.

[Bullseye]

I agree with the two posters above. Also the fact that companies are still releasing Profile 1.1 players will only confuse the consumer who has not already bought a player. At this stage in the life cycle of Blu Ray all players should be profile 2.0.

[Slec]

Guys, read Jeff's post as a whole. He's building to the end where he advocates that we all stick together to get things fixed. Sure PS3 owners purchase the majority of discs, at this time, which is why we need to demand that the other players are up to snuff. This isn't a contest to see if the PS3 can outsell, has more support etc... It's all about the format now, what's bad for stand-alone owners is bad for PS3 owners.

Does it matter if PS3 owners buy more disks than standalone 2 years from now? No. Does it matter for the format if movies continue to be released that don't work on all players? yes, it hold back adoption (and the lower pricing that comes with it on discs and hardware) which is something WE ALL would benefit from.

[Mr. Cinema]

Long term though, I'd rather see the format grow from standalone units and not a gaming system. Yes, the PS3 is an all-around machine, but the primary use is games first. Most places keep it in the video games section. There's a reason for that.

When someone buys a standalone unit, you know exactly what they'll use it for. With a PS3, you don't.

[Bobby Henderson]

When I get asked, "what is the best choice for a Blu-ray player?" I still recommend the Playstation 3. That recommendation is based on the players that are available now. Not six months in the future or a year from now. The same thing goes for the pricing levels. Anyone needing to buy a Blu-ray player today will get the most bang for his buck with a PS3.

Sure, Sony takes a loss on every PS3 sold. And it doesn't do much to promote the standalone BD player business. But that's looking at it from a business / share-holder's perspective. A customer wanting to get the most for his money only wants the best deal.

I agree standalone BD players will eventually outperform the PS3 in terms of load times and all sorts of other areas. We'll eventually see full-featured Profile 2.0 players become even more affordable. I think such players will hit $150 price levels by Summer of 2009 and we'll start seeing $99 and under BD players by the end of 2009. But that's all in the future, not now.

Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema

When someone buys a standalone unit, you know exactly what they'll use it for. With a PS3, you don't.

That isn't a bad thing. The PS3 is a lot more than just a mere gaming console. The numerous uses it has makes the device more attractive to consumers.

Single purpose, standalone BD players will be forced down to really low pricing levels. Any company expecting to maintain high, premium pricing on certain BD player models will have to throw in a lot more bells and whistles to justify the price and to compete with PS3.

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Don't forget that not all PS3 owners buy Blu-rays, by all accounts the figure is about 80% that have bought at least one disc, and 30% buy discs regularly.

I keep seeing these claims about how most PS3 owners buy next to nothing in terms of Blu-ray movies and I just have to say that's a load of baloney. There is actually quite a few PS3 owners who buy a lot more movies than games. I have only 3 games for my 80GB PS3, one of which came free with the system.

Look back to the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray format war and sales figures of BD discs versus HD-DVD movie sales. Blu-ray routinely sustained at least 2:1 and often 3:1 margins on unit sales. The vast majority of those margins were coming via the wallets of PS3 owners.

Playstation 3 is still going to outnumber standalone BD players at the end of this year. Major BD movie releases and anticipated gaming titles like Little Big Planet will move a lot of PS3 consoles this holiday season. By the middle or end of 2009 I'm certain standalones will outnumber PS3 consoles by a good margin.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

No way, in two years time standalone decks will be $100-150 depending on what you want while the PS3 will most likely cost $250-300. Also the speed of standalones will be better than PS3 by then, Sigma's newest SoC is just as fast as the PS3. Two years from now the PS3 will have the same hardware spec, but standalones will be significantly more powerful.

I expect PS3 owners to be the minority of BD consumers by the end of next year if not sooner. Don't forget that not all PS3 owners buy Blu-rays, by all accounts the figure is about 80% that have bought at least one disc, and 30% buy discs regularly.

Will standalones still have issues playing certain discs though in two years and still require firmware updates for such problems? This is my biggest concern for standalones. It seems the PS3 is far superior in this regard.

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

No way, in two years time standalone decks will be $100-150 depending on what you want while the PS3 will most likely cost $250-300. Also the speed of standalones will be better than PS3 by then, Sigma's newest SoC is just as fast as the PS3. Two years from now the PS3 will have the same hardware spec, but standalones will be significantly more powerful.

I expect PS3 owners to be the minority of BD consumers by the end of next year if not sooner. Don't forget that not all PS3 owners buy Blu-rays, by all accounts the figure is about 80% that have bought at least one disc, and 30% buy discs regularly.

Are you saying that Profile 1.1 players will still be in production in 2 years time (4 years into BDs lifecycle)?

[Jeff Kleist]

I keep seeing these claims about how most PS3 owners buy next to nothing in terms of Blu-ray movies and I just have to say that's a load of baloney. There is actually quite a few PS3 owners who buy a lot more movies than games. I have only 3 games for my 80GB PS3, one of which came free with the system.

Look back to the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray format war and sales figures of BD discs versus HD-DVD movie sales. Blu-ray routinely sustained at least 2:1 and often 3:1 margins on unit sales. The vast majority of those margins were coming via the wallets of PS3 owners.

That's right, and that was important then, just as for awhile there you were seeing "Plays on PlayStation 2" on DVDs. It's a very large demographic of the player owning population at this point in history.

How many people still use the PS2 as their primary DVD player? Seriously? How many people used it even in 2002? Outside of college dorms, very few. But for a LOT of people it WAS their first DVD player, and it was the player that got other people to buy decks.

I suggest a lot of the above go back and re-read my post carefully, Slec got it right

Are you saying that Profile 1.1 players will still be in production in 2 years time (4 years into BDs lifecycle)?

I personally have my doubts. Ethernet adds so little to the price ($2 maybe). Mostly BD-Live is being used as another reason to buy the premium model at this point. Wireless Ethernet will be up there IMO inside of 18 months as the premium addon