Sony UBP-X800 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Yes,I have both, The Sony X-800 and the Panasonic DP-UB420 both connected to a 49",nothing big or fancy, Samsung HDR set.
As HDR can be disabled both on the Sony and Panasonic 420 one can do a direct comparison of HDR to SDR is performed by these two player, also, using different software as it's not the same converting Blade Runner 2049 with its mild use of HDR than with Pacific Rim with its agressive use of HDR. The Panasonic 420 does a good job with both, Blade Runner 2049 looks OK converted to SDR by the Sony X-800 (color looks off anyway) but Pacific Rim looks dreadful with plenty of burned highlights.
Regarding upscaling HD to 4K, the Panasonic 420 looks sharp, clear and without visible aliasing, but when the Sony X-800 does the same its HD to 4K upconversion looks soft and lacks clarity like if some kind of DNR was used, overall picture is not clear.

I did a quick comparison using two Blu-ray copies of Hellboy II and I'm honestly not seeing the difference you are. Matter of fact, I'm not seeing a difference at all (even with my face practically glued to the screen). Hellyboy is just as red, sharp and clear on both the X800 (picture set to direct, upscaling to auto 1) and 820 (set to 4K 4:4:4) which are hooked up to a Sony 1070 AV receiver connected to a Sony 75Z9D.



I did see however some ringing on S&M sharpness test pattern with the X800 on my current settings. With the 820's edge correction set to 1 I don't see any ringing.

I think this has been covered before but I'm bringing it up again anyway since I have now tested it myself.

Resolution: auto + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 2 = no ringing

Resolution: direct + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 2 = ringing

Resolution: 4K (upscaling is disabled) = no ringing

I did the same Hellboy II comparison this time with the X800 set to auto resolution + 4K scaling auto 2, but both the X800 and 820 still looked the same to me.

But perhaps there are other particular test patterns I need to take a look at, that would clearly make me see the difference in picture quality?

As far as HDR performance goes, I don't have two UHD copies of the same movie but based on what I have seen since I have owned these players, I think the HDR Optimizer is the only thing that would set them apart. But since the effect is negligible on the Z9D, I only use the Optimizer for my projector.

So IMHO both the X800 and 820 are excellent players, with the 820 only having the advantage when you really need the Optimizer (or a front display ).

[Cortiz]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I did a quick comparison using two Blu-ray copies of Hellboy II and I'm honestly not seeing the difference you are. Matter of fact, I'm not seeing a difference at all (even with my face practically glued to the screen). Hellyboy is just as red, sharp and clear on both the X800 (picture set to direct, upscaling to auto 1) and 820 (set to 4K 4:4:4) which are hooked up to a Sony 1070 AV receiver connected to a Sony 75Z9D.



I did see however some ringing on S&M sharpness test pattern with the X800 on my current settings. With the 820's edge correction set to 1 I don't see any ringing.

I think this has been covered before but I'm bringing it up again anyway since I have now tested it myself.

Resolution: auto + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 2 = no ringing

Resolution: direct + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 2 = ringing

Resolution: 4K (upscaling is disabled) = no ringing

I did the same Hellboy II comparison this time with the X800 set to auto resolution + 4K scaling auto 2, but both the X800 and 820 still looked the same to me.

But perhaps there are other particular test patterns I need to take a look at, that would clearly make me see the difference in picture quality?

As far as HDR performance goes, I don't have two UHD copies of the same movie but based on what I have seen since I have owned these players, I think the HDR Optimizer is the only thing that would set them apart. But since the effect is negligible on the Z9D, I only use the Optimizer for my projector.

So IMHO both the X800 and 820 are excellent players, with the 820 only having the advantage when you really need the Optimizer (or a front display ).

I have been saying this all along but kept getting shut down by some Panny fan boys on these forums. I rest my case....

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Cortiz

I have been saying this all along but kept getting shut down by some Panny fan boys on these forums. I rest my case....

Don't take my word for it though, I would love for other owners of both players to chime in.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, I've done a fair bit of comparing back and forth between the X800, various Pannys and the OPPO 203 and there really isn't a 'night and day' difference between them to my eyes on my ZD9, though they all have their own little quirks and idiosyncrasies for sure. The sharper and cleaner the content is then the more that the inherently aggressive chroma sampling of the Panny comes into play, but it's worth mentioning that I now leave Edge Correction OFF on the Panny because although it cleans up some mild luma ringing on the S&M sharpness pattern it can cause some moiré on actual real world content.

[halloween5309]

I can't speak about uhd models but generally panasonic is terrible about playing scratched or fingerprinted discs, uhd could be even more sensitive.

[Geoff D]

Honestly, I've had very little playback trouble with discs in that respect on all three players. But, and I don't mean this sarcastically, my discs aren't covered with fingerprints and scratches so the condition of the playing surface isn't usually a problem. I've had a total of two UHD discs be so badly damaged that they froze up, one had a rather nasty gouge on it - small, but deep - and another had impact damage, like a little dent. Although on that latter disc it was the Panny that handled it BETTER than the OPPO, the Panny skipped and stuttered but was able to play past the problem spot while the OPPO locked up completely and made a persistent clicking sound as it did so.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, I've done a fair bit of comparing back and forth between the X800, various Pannys and the OPPO 203 and there really isn't a 'night and day' difference between them to my eyes on my ZD9, though they all have their own little quirks and idiosyncrasies for sure. The sharper and cleaner the content is then the more that the inherently aggressive chroma sampling of the Panny comes into play, but it's worth mentioning that I now leave Edge Correction OFF on the Panny because although it cleans up some mild luma ringing on the S&M sharpness pattern it can cause some moiré on actual real world content.

I'd appreciate your advice, what settings do you use on the Shapness Adjustment on the Panasonic? I've set Luma (High Frequency) to +1, Luma (Mid Frequency at +1, Chroma at 0 as I don't really know what it does or see any effect, and Edge Correction to 0. What do you think? Do you think going to +2 on both Luma settings is overkill? What about Chroma?

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I did a quick comparison using two Blu-ray copies of Hellboy II and I'm honestly not seeing the difference you are. Matter of fact, I'm not seeing a difference at all (even with my face practically glued to the screen). Hellyboy is just as red, sharp and clear on both the X800 (picture set to direct, upscaling to auto 1) and 820 (set to 4K 4:4:4) which are hooked up to a Sony 1070 AV receiver connected to a Sony 75Z9D.



I did see however some ringing on S&M sharpness test pattern with the X800 on my current settings. With the 820's edge correction set to 1 I don't see any ringing.

I think this has been covered before but I'm bringing it up again anyway since I have now tested it myself.

Resolution: auto + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: auto + 4K scaling auto 2 = no ringing

Resolution: direct + 4K scaling off = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 1 = ringing
Resolution: direct + 4K scaling auto 2 = ringing

Resolution: 4K (upscaling is disabled) = no ringing

I did the same Hellboy II comparison this time with the X800 set to auto resolution + 4K scaling auto 2, but both the X800 and 820 still looked the same to me.

But perhaps there are other particular test patterns I need to take a look at, that would clearly make me see the difference in picture quality?

As far as HDR performance goes, I don't have two UHD copies of the same movie but based on what I have seen since I have owned these players, I think the HDR Optimizer is the only thing that would set them apart. But since the effect is negligible on the Z9D, I only use the Optimizer for my projector.

So IMHO both the X800 and 820 are excellent players, with the 820 only having the advantage when you really need the Optimizer (or a front display ).

I'll try your setting with the X-800 and tell you what I see. So it's Resolution set to Auto and Scaling to Auto 2. I'll check it with the BD of Oblivion that is a quite sharp looking disc, unlike its UHD BD counterpart.
I think one of the key points for the Panasonic looking better playing UHD BD's than the Sony X800 is its superior Chroma Upsampling. Every player does this its own way there is not a standard algorithm. I've tried several UHD BD's played on the X-800 (set to 4:4:4 like the Panasonic) and on the Panasonic set to direct, no video processing or HDR Optimizer on and still the Panasonic looks better to me, sharper, cleaner and with better overall picture definition than the Sony. My latest revelation with the Panasonic was changing its video output from Auto to RGB Video Level at 12 bit. It looks even cleaner than set at 4:4:4 and it may be placebo effect again but I think color looks better,more natural. If you set the Sony X-800 to RGB it only outputs an 8 bit video signal so no Wide Color Gamut.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, I've done a fair bit of comparing back and forth between the X800, various Pannys and the OPPO 203 and there really isn't a 'night and day' difference between them to my eyes on my ZD9, though they all have their own little quirks and idiosyncrasies for sure. The sharper and cleaner the content is then the more that the inherently aggressive chroma sampling of the Panny comes into play, but it's worth mentioning that I now leave Edge Correction OFF on the Panny because although it cleans up some mild luma ringing on the S&M sharpness pattern it can cause some moiré on actual real world content.

I figured the ringing is something that would most likely not be noticable with real world content anyway. I haven't noticed any moiré to be honest, but I'll gladly take your word for it. I guess I would rather leave Edge Correction to off also if it can affect actual content when set to 1. Do you have some examples perhaps of particular instances with certain movies when this happens?

Btw I have sent you a PM.

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I'll try your setting with the X-800 and tell you what I see. So it's Resolution set to Auto and Scaling to Auto 2. I'll check it with the BD of Oblivion that is a quite sharp looking disc, unlike its UHD BD counterpart.
I think one of the key points for the Panasonic looking better playing UHD BD's than the Sony X800 is its superior Chroma Upsampling. Every player does this its own way there is not a standard algorithm. I've tried several UHD BD's played on the X-800 (set to 4:4:4 like the Panasonic) and on the Panasonic set to direct, no video processing or HDR Optimizer on and still the Panasonic looks better to me, sharper, cleaner and with better overall picture definition than the Sony. My latest revelation with the Panasonic was changing its video output from Auto to RGB Video Level at 12 bit. It looks even cleaner than set at 4:4:4 and it may be placebo effect again but I think color looks better,more natural. If you set the Sony X-800 to RGB it only outputs an 8 bit video signal so no Wide Color Gamut.

I don't think auto resolution + auto 2 scaling will make a perceivable difference with actual content though, it's just that this gets rid of the ringing that I saw on the pattern.

Just now I have watched a couple of random scenes from The Meg UHD. First on the 820 and then again on the X800. In all honestly, it looks about the same to my eyes (Optimizer off, viewing distance is about 3 meters) and I'm having a hard time seeing a really worthwhile difference. Personally I can't imagine one player having substantially better picture quality than the other. Still I don't like doing it this way. I would prefer to have two copies of the same disc playing at the same time and then being able to toggle between the players while they are running.

Can you mention a couple of UHD titles for which you thought the difference was really noticable? I might try those just for fun (providing I own them ofcourse ).

[Scarriere]

I think EVH should get a disc to adjust his tv before making outlandish claims on what good players are. If available, maybe calibration.
Myself, I've never had a tv that needed 100 on the contrast. That high is usually a step backwards.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I figured the ringing is something that would most likely not be noticable with real world content anyway. I haven't noticed any moiré to be honest, but I'll gladly take your word for it. I guess I would rather leave Edge Correction to off also if it can affect actual content when set to 1. Do you have some examples perhaps of particular instances with certain movies when this happens?

Btw I have sent you a PM.

I do indeed. In my write-up of the UHD of Captain America: Winter Soldier I noticed that the BD (when upscaled to 4K via the Panny 420, Edge Correction set to +1) had some heavy moiré on the blinds just before matey lobs that grenade at Nat and Cap aboard the ship at the start. Forums member (and UHD screencapper extraordinaire) andreasy969 noted that the BD did not have this artefact, so when I went back to check I turned off the EC and lo and behold, the moiré was gone on the BD. So now I leave it off.

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I'd appreciate your advice, what settings do you use on the Shapness Adjustment on the Panasonic? I've set Luma (High Frequency) to +1, Luma (Mid Frequency at +1, Chroma at 0 as I don't really know what it does or see any effect, and Edge Correction to 0. What do you think? Do you think going to +2 on both Luma settings is overkill? What about Chroma?

The upscaled HD to 4K image is already being sharpened (in luma and chroma) to the point of inducing ringing on the Panny and as for actual 4K I wouldn't dream of actually turning UP the luma sharpness controls unless the source material was completely softened beyond belief, e.g. the UHD of Oblivion for which I crank both Luma sharpening settings to +6 and put Edge Correction to +1 to counteract the ringing. But that is literally the only UHD I've ever performed such drastic corrective surgery on.

I still don't like how aggressive the chroma upsampling is on the Panny, but turning it down to -3 or -4 to remove the colour ringing softens it up a bit too much so all I do is bring the chroma down to -1. Everything else in the sharpening controls is at 0 or the 'middle' default setting.

[Geoff D]

To actually bring the thread back around to topic, I can only reiterate that the in-playback video settings (which you can access from the Options button on the remote) on the Sony X800 MUST be set to 'Direct', if it's left on Auto then it applies forced noise reduction to sub-4K content.

[MooneyRara]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To actually bring the thread back around to topic, I can only reiterate that the in-playback video settings (which you can access from the Options button on the remote) on the Sony X800 MUST be set to 'Direct', if it's left on Auto then it applies forced noise reduction to sub-4K content.

Thank you Geoff. This has been a recurring theme of this thread dating back to last August. I get the feeling it has not sunk in yet.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The upscaled HD to 4K image is already being sharpened (in luma and chroma) to the point of inducing ringing on the Panny and as for actual 4K I wouldn't dream of actually turning UP the luma sharpness controls unless the source material was completely softened beyond belief, e.g. the UHD of Oblivion for which I crank both Luma sharpening settings to +6 and put Edge Correction to +1 to counteract the ringing. But that is literally the only UHD I've ever performed such drastic corrective surgery on.

I still don't like how aggressive the chroma upsampling is on the Panny, but turning it down to -3 or -4 to remove the colour ringing softens it up a bit too much so all I do is bring the chroma down to -1. Everything else in the sharpening controls is at 0 or the 'middle' default setting.

Thanks for your advice Geoff. I've brought all sharpening to 0 and now the only processing I use to help my low nit Samsung TV to look better (HDR Optimizer apart) is setting Tone Curve (White) between -3 and -6 as this enhances specular highlights, makes it more visible, and as another forummember suggested on the Panasonic thread, for dark movies I set Tone Curve (Black) at +1 to make darker areas more visible without compromising contrast.
Why do you think that the Chroma Upsampling done by Panasonic players is agressive and what do you mean by agressive? Other players can also do a 4:4:4 chroma upsampling like the Sony X-800, or maybe you refer to the way Panasonic players do chroma upsampling, the algorithm they use to do it?
I think Panasonic's Chroma Upsampling is one of their assets along with HDR Optimizer,but I may be wrong.
I have my Panasonic 420 set to RGB 12 bit instead of 4:4:4 12 bit, UHD BD's look great this way but this may be because by feeding a straight RGB signal to my inexpensive (1000 Euros) 49" Samsung set I may be bypassing some of its subpar digital processing. In the end, al 4:4:4 video signals must be converted to RGB as that's what pannels needs to work,not component video.
I understand that with higher end and better quality video processing TV sets setting an UHD BD to RGB 12 bits could be of no help or even make video look worse, the fact is that with my inexpensive Samsung TV works great.

[jibucha]

you explained 'auto' - i am curious what 'direct' does differently (meaning - how does direct work? - what exactly does it do?)

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To actually bring the thread back around to topic, I can only reiterate that the in-playback video settings (which you can access from the Options button on the remote) on the Sony X800 MUST be set to 'Direct', if it's left on Auto then it applies forced noise reduction to sub-4K content.

[Geoff D]

@ evh

I don't mean 'aggressive' in so much of it being 4:4:4, any tinpot player can do that, it's the way that the Panasonic goes about rebuilding chroma in general. You get the best chroma sharpness, yes, but it adds chroma ringing that I've never seen on any other player on default settings (and I've seen a few!).

Even Panny's older BD decks, like the BDT310 that I have, aren't so 'aggressive' with the chroma out of the box. You can turn the 'super chroma' (I forget the actual name) on if you want, whereupon it now resembles the sharpness/ringing on the Panny UHD players, but back in the day the Panny's default wasn't to have the chroma be bumped up quite so much.

Does it *really* matter in motion? I guess not, and their method of chroma upsampling actually helps certain UHD discs that have exceedingly poor chroma compression (Blade Runner, Apollo 13).

@ jibucha

The 'direct' mode on the Sony is one that disables any extraneous processing for the image, I mean it'll still be upscaling sub-4K content but any in-player controls like NR/colour/brightness/contrast alterations are bypassed so the image is as 'pure' as possible. Panasonics inherently lack such a function (it took a few months before their first UHD player even had a 'native' 10-bit output) while OPPOs have something similar to the Sony.

[jibucha]

thank you (very much - appreciated)
note :: i will have to try that on my two Sony (not certain what it's set at) - if not 'direct' it might just affect my thinking of them

update :: 6/18/19 @ 1am :: i just checked on my UBP-X800 player and under 'options' found nothing relevant (under 'settings' i did find options regarding setting up for video, etc, however 'no direct' - several are on 'auto' but if i try to find 'direct' i only find 'off' or another 'auto') - - - highly confusing

Originally Posted by Geoff D

@ jibucha

The 'direct' mode on the Sony is one that disables any extraneous processing for the image, I mean it'll still be upscaling sub-4K content but any in-player controls like NR/colour/brightness/contrast alterations are bypassed so the image is as 'pure' as possible. Panasonics inherently lack such a function (it took a few months before their first UHD player even had a 'native' 10-bit output) while OPPOs have something similar to the Sony.

[Geoff D]

Press the options button DURING PLAYBACK. You will have a little menu spring up on the right hand side and Video Settings will be there. Go into that. Select 'Picture Quality Mode' and choose Direct for the most un-fudged image. This will not have any visible effect for 4K source content e.g. UHD disc but for playing back regular BD and DVD it will disable the forced noise reduction for these sources.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by cfx

I don't have the player but do have a question--does this still work with whatever the latest firmware is?

In that other thread about this issue on the blu-ray players BDP-S6500 and 6700, it's been reported that newer firmware has made it where you can't remove this noise reduction with any settings, though the method to do it previously was more involved on those players.

I've read what you are talking about in that thread, but I am not familiar with those players in question myself.

I'm on the latest firmware with my X800 and X1000 and I am still able to choose "Direct" when pressing "options" during playback (it was one of the first things I checked when I got them ).

Any particular test pattern(s) to check and see if there's still any kind of NR going on?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I've read what you are talking about in that thread, but I am not familiar with those players in question myself.

I'm on the latest firmware with my X800 and X1000 and I am still able to choose "Direct" when pressing "options" during playback (it was one of the first things I checked when I got them ).

Any particular test pattern(s) to check and see if there's still any kind of NR going on?

No, patterns won't do it because it's a temporal i.e. motion based DNR, just toggling it on or off on a static pattern won't show anything. Pull a BD movie off your shelf, something good and grainy, and whilst playing it on a relatively sedate scene then toggle between Direct and Auto. You should hopefully see the grain turn off/on as it does so.