4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

At this point the only thing it will do is cannibalize Sony's profit margins.

I tend to agree and it’s not like Sony has money to burn…. Bain & Co. is on its way -

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...#axzz2lReBb76I

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

No. In my opinion the timeframe is just too short for so many advancements to come at once.

Well then in that case, Joe is going to have something to whine about on talk shows for many years to come.

For some HEVC development background, adding 10-bit (Main10) to Main (8bit) was really rather easy to do because from the start in HEVC design, 10-bit sequences were added as test material to ensure that HEVC extensions development would not be a burden. For example, even the old reference software HM7.0 version successfully supported 10-bit video sequence coding.

Going beyond that for the consumer profiles is more involving and complicated especially if content creators plan on shooting and distributing @ 120fps (which like 10-bit, is a parameter of Rec.2020) for consumers because that will entail yet another significant upgrade in HDMI spec (e.g. above HDMI 2.0) but in terms of picture quality with consumer applications, going from 60p -> 120p makes a much greater difference than increases in chroma format (4:2:2 and 4:4:4) albeit at a greater bit rate penalty to make it feasible.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

II think it’s reasonable to assume that many potential PS4 buyers around the world got the impression that the device would do more than 4k stills….

agree and I think eventually it will. The difference is that I don't see red's or Sony's or Samsung's 4k services as real distribution channels for 4k, they are more like D-VHS a small temporary niche patch for the guy that can't wait for the real thing. that is why I am talking 4k BD

and serve as another vehicle, in addition to the puck, having accessibility to the 4k download service.

I answered why I believe that might be good for consumers but bad for Sony in my previous post so I won't rehash it.

As far as HDD space and all, I haven’t tried it but I’m pretty sure if you purchase a 4k movie thru the puck and even later erase it from your hard drive, you can still download it again, if need be, without paying for it again. So, it’s not like you would have to keep the movies on your puck ( or PS4) for perpetuity < lol, that’s a whole lot of ‘p’s in that last phrase.

maybe, but does the puck stream? or would the guy need to wait for hours before he can start playing the movie because he deleted because his 500GB drive can only hold a handful of movies and games but now he wants to watch it again?


PS also I was discussing 4k BD, but I did not mean it as the only thing (just the one I am interested in). At this point the PS4 has Netflix streaming, Netflix has said they will offer 4k but as far as I know it is not offered yet, once Netflix starts offering it to customers the PS4 app will be updated to those specs......

[vargo]

but in terms of picture quality with consumer applications, going from 60p -> 120p makes a much greater difference than increases in chroma format (4:2:2 and 4:4:4) albeit at a greater bit rate penalty to make it feasible.

Unfortunately LCD won the display war and LCD panels typically used in TVs (IPS or VA type) don't have fast enough response time to do justice to 120fps. It's the same reason that active 3D is crummy on LCD sets compared to Plasma. The pixel transitions are just too slow.

Ive seen 120Hz on a TN panel and it was better but you can't use these in TV sets (viewing angles) and even then I could still detect some pixel transitions taking longer than 1/120s.

So if you are hoping for 120fps video in the home you should cross your fingers that OLED does well.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

maybe, but does the puck stream?

AFAIK, it does not, download only. Could be wrong.

At this point the PS4 has Netflix streaming, Netflix has said they will offer 4k but as far as I know it is not offered yet, once Netflix starts offering it to customers the PS4 app will be updated to those specs......

Netflix supposedly has a few 4K test streams up. Need a 15 mbps connection in order to stream . They dropped out of the UV group a while back so not much of a chance of downloads from Netflix.

If Netflix is going to call 15 mbps UHD then the Sony puck will be Super Super Super Super UHD (about 56 mbps for 120 minutes). Image what the 100 GB Blu-ray will be called .

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

AFAIK, it does not, download only. Could be wrong.

I kind of know that, I was being a bit facetious (plus covering my butt in case I was wrong), I think it was laughable to say just delete ist and , maybe, you can Dl when you want to watch it again. If it is a minute or two, yeah no problem, but when it is that big and it will take a few hours, it does not make sense to say "I saw it, let's delete it" just to have someone say "you have X, let's watch it" just to have to wait half a day to watch it the second time.

Netflix supposedly has a few 4K test streams up. Need a 15 mbps connection in order to stream . They dropped out of the UV group a while back so not much of a chance of downloads from Netflix.

If Netflix is going to call 15 mbps UHD then the Sony puck will be Super Super Super Super UHD (about 56 mbps for 120 minutes). Image what the 100 GB Blu-ray will be called .

Agree, I tried Netflix but I don't use it for their 1080p crap and I would definitely not use it for the 4k they describe. I just added it because it is a service that I think will exist in the future (not just a patch) but does not really exist yet.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I kind of know that, I was being a bit facetious (plus covering my butt in case I was wrong)

IF I should procure a FMP-X1 I would use a external USB drive for more space.

or add even more space for movies and personal videos with an external drive (sold separately).

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But you are missing the obvious. The PS4 is a game console and sold at a loss, I would guess the puck is sold with reasonable margins. Also un-like the PS3, where BD was critical for gaming (it meant that there could be games like the last of us that was over 40GB), 4k movies add nothing to game play. Also, like you said "the end goal would be the same", Joe that buys a PS4 and has it hooked up to his 1080p TV won't rent the 4k movies, while Bill that went out and paid big bucks for the Sony 4K TV will most likely pay for the puck and buy/rent those films, so all you did is give him a much cheaper solution where you loose money with every machine sold for that purpose instead of making money. In a few years when 4K TVs are cheaper and in more homes and is no longer an elite product, would be the right time to add 4k to the PS4 to help 4k grow. At this point the only thing it will do is cannibalize Sony's profit margins.

Yes Sony would lose some profits, but they would gain them on the sale of their 4k tv, and sale and rental of 4k content, plus the occasional game.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

Yes Sony would lose some profits, but they would gain them on the sale of their 4k tv, and sale and rental of 4k content, plus the occasional game.

so you think the guy that is not willing to spend 700$ (300$ over the price of the PS4) for a 4k video player will run out and spend several thousands to buy a 4K TV because he bought a PS4?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IF I should procure a FMP-X1 I would use a external USB drive for more space.

agree but the discussion was about the PS4 and, at least at this time, that would not be an option.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so you think the guy that is not willing to spend 700$ (300$ over the price of the PS4) for a 4k video player will run out and spend several thousands to buy a 4K TV because he bought a PS4?

No obviously not, most PS4 will probably only see game duty, but if I was in the market for a 4k display, I would give serious consideration to a PS4 if it had HDMI 2.0, over the player which also doesn't have it as well.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

maybe, but does the puck stream? or would the guy need to wait for hours before he can start playing the movie because he deleted because his 500GB drive can only hold a handful of movies and games but now he wants to watch it again?

Well I guess ‘some guys’ would, but I don’t generally have to deal with those types of scenarios….i.e. unexpected spur of the moment impulses or requests by others (I have a small family) to view something all over again for which I/we still have excellent recollection of. Otherwise, I wouldn’t prematurely erase the dang thing to begin with.

But again, different strokes for different folks.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

Unfortunately LCD won the display war and LCD panels typically used in TVs (IPS or VA type) don't have fast enough response time to do justice to 120fps. It's the same reason that active 3D is crummy on LCD sets compared to Plasma. The pixel transitions are just too slow.

Ive seen 120Hz on a TN panel and it was better but you can't use these in TV sets (viewing angles) and even then I could still detect some pixel transitions taking longer than 1/120s.

So if you are hoping for 120fps video in the home you should cross your fingers that OLED does well.

Hmm, and you think that the LCD displays at the EBU/BBC booths at IBC - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...bc#post8332690

were not IPS or VA? As far as “doing justice”, I think some would disagree with you. Run the clip starting from about the 16-17 min. mark - http://www.ericsson.com/televisionar...usses-hevc-an/

4k OLED @ 120fps would be nice (e.g. Sony's pro 1080p OLED displays use a 25% duty-cycle to reduce motion-tracking blur without lowering brightness too much), but I think the more immediate challenge to HFR (meaning >60fps) happening in the future is not any ‘ inherent LCD display *deficiency*; but more, the practicality of getting such increased data rate throughput capability [24Gbps! for 2160p 120fps (10bit 4:2:2) for just one camera] from multiple 4K cameras for instance just into and throughout an OB truck onsite at a venue.

As far as ‘hoping for’, personally, the only thing I’m hoping for is the opportunity next summer to view the World Cup final match displayed in 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 @60p within a reasonable driving distance of my home….and, of course that it’s at least a fairly good match. In that sense, I don’t think I’m too demanding of current end-to-end video tech nor World Cup football, for that matter.

Although PeterTHX might tend to disagree with the later.

[Penton-Man]

Heads-up to any Englanders reading from the Wells, Bristol, etc. area.
It’s not 4K but, good flick….good cause -
http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Char...#axzz2lXhBNqhH

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

but if I was in the market for a 4k display, I would give serious consideration to a PS4 if it had HDMI 2.0, over the player which also doesn't have it as well.

and that is exactly my point. It can't convince you to buy a 4K TV or watch 4k films on your 2kTV but at best if you were to buy a 4K TV take away a sale from the puck. So that is a loss for Sony since, I imagine, the puck is sold at a profit while the PS4 is sold at a loss.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well I guess ‘some guys’ would, but I don’t generally have to deal with those types of scenarios….i.e. unexpected spur of the moment impulses or requests by others (I have a small family) to view something all over again for which I/we still have excellent recollection of. Otherwise, I wouldn’t prematurely erase the dang thing to begin with.

But again, different strokes for different folks.

does the time frame matter? The PS4 came with a 500GB disk and because of physical size limitations the biggest that has been tried is 1TB.

When I pointed that it can only store a very insignificantly small collection you said

I’m pretty sure if you purchase a 4k movie thru the puck and even later erase it from your hard drive, you can still download it again, if need be, without paying for it again. So, it’s not like you would have to keep the movies on your puck ( or PS4) for perpetuity

For example in Dec I watch only Christmas movies until the 25th, every year it is mostly the same ones over and over again (a lot of classics in the list that deserve to be seen every year). So what are my options, have the HDD full of Christmas movies and not be able to DL anything else, or delete them after I watch them (since I won't need them until next year) and then have to go through the pain of DL them again.

It is easy on a forum to just say, delete them and DL them again when you want to watch it a second time but in the real world there are costly ramifications.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

does the time frame matter? The PS4 came with a 500GB disk and because of physical size limitations the biggest that has been tried is 1TB.

When I pointed that it can only store a very insignificantly small collection you said




For example in Dec I watch only Christmas movies until the 25th, every year it is mostly the same ones over and over again (a lot of classics in the list that deserve to be seen every year). So what are my options, have the HDD full of Christmas movies and not be able to DL anything else, or delete them after I watch them (since I won't need them until next year) and then have to go through the pain of DL them again.

It is easy on a forum to just say, delete them and DL them again when you want to watch it a second time but in the real world there are costly ramifications.

I agree, and it's not like you can just re-download a 100gb file on a whim, it will take several hours to download, so in reality you have to download today so you can watch tomorrow. The cost is a real concern especially for people with data caps. I know here in Ontario the data caps are quite small, 2 movies and you've blown your cap.

[vargo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Hmm, and you think that the LCD displays at the EBU/BBC booths at IBC - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...bc#post8332690

were not IPS or VA? As far as “doing justice”, I think some would disagree with you. Run the clip starting from about the 16-17 min. mark - http://www.ericsson.com/televisionar...usses-hevc-an/

LCD panels have poor response times. Its measureable. Even at 60fps the best IPS panels have noticeable ghosting and/or overdrive artifacts. Everybody who has watched 60fps sports on LCD vs Plasma or CRT is already familiar with this. The problem doesnt go away above 60fps. And sadly the average consumer does not buy the best panel, they buy something significantly worse.

That's why it will be difficult to convince consumers int he near future of the benefits of HFR, improved color depth and all these other things. Joe Average buys a $400 TV with ghosting, lousy contrast and a 6-bit (!) panel.

[Steedeel]

My stance is pretty straight forward. 4k bluray = collector carries on collecting.
4k downloads only = collector becomes renter with occasional buys. It's all about the collecting aspect for me. The special editions, the packaging, the novelty collectable etc.. Having a selection of films on a drive or the cloud in 4k is ok, but it ain't the same.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

...It is easy on a forum to just say, delete them and DL them again when you want to watch it a second time but in the real world there are costly ramifications.

Again, not in my ‘real world’…..or else I couldn’t have ever *survived* those costly ramifications with a Time Warner DVR over the years for recording/deleting football games, TV shows and soccer matches….except when something anomalous happens like Steed tells me several days after I delete a Sunderland match that he’s on TV seen in the crowd cheering on his team…who lost again over the weekend.

Yes, it’s also ‘easy’ for official reporting on websites (other than forums) for people to say that the PS4 will play 4k -

"Speaking with The Verge, Sony COO Phil Molyneux said that the PlayStation 4 will support the Sony Entertainment Network’s “world’s first” 4K resolution movie service" - http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/playstation-4-won/
and Sony Worldwide Studios president Shuhei Yoshida -http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/21/401...k-output-games

And then several months later for the official line to be downgraded to it’s “in consideration”… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...on#post8418115

Which reminds me, something else ‘official’ is incorrect. One moment.