Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[guile]

Strange issue with Youtube app. I can watch as many 4K videos as I want and they all look great! But when I go to watch my "purchased" movies, they are in STANDARD DEF!!

All of them and there is no way I can fix this within the YT app.

Any ideas what could be causing this?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

So in this case, the BU9000 is going to tone map to a peak of 2938 (clip point) for a an overall display brightness of whatever is set in the display type menu (so long as Optimizer is ON, doesn't do this if Optimizer OFF). It makes the metadata match the display type selected so that the display used only tone maps to that point (if it uses the metadata at all). If the display doesn't use the metadata it doesn't really matter because the HDR signal has already been optimized for that peak luminance value.

The one thing that is disappointing about the HDR output when using the HDR Optimizer is that you can't force a clip point. With the SDR2020 output, if you turn the Optimizer OFF, it defaults to 1000 nits. That works really well for titles like Sicario which have 0 for MaxCLL but 4000 nits for Display max. So in the HDR output case, you're tone mapping to 4000 nits and the image will look a bit drab and dark. But the real MaxCLL is just over 1000, so with the SDR output, it looks fantastic because you can force it to a closer true nit value. This actually works really well for quite a few titles out there.

Thanks for the tip about Sicario, not that I'll use the SDR2020 output but that the 'real' peak is 1000 nits so I won't need to engage the Optimiser. Any more that have 1000-ish inside a 4000 mastering that don't show the MaxCLL in the on-disc metadata?

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by guile

Strange issue with Youtube app. I can watch as many 4K videos as I want and they all look great! But when I go to watch my "purchased" movies, they are in STANDARD DEF!!

All of them and there is no way I can fix this within the YT app.

Any ideas what could be causing this?

Which Panasonic player do you have, UB820 or UB9000? Is the 4K HDR issue with streaming or a physical disc or a ripped file?

Two things to try:

1st, check for firmware update and do it if your player does not have the latest version.

2nd, do a full a/c reboot. Unplug the player from the electrical outlet for a full 10 minutes. While the player is unplugged press the on/of button on the front panel to ensure the capacitors are fully discharged.

Once you power on the player be patient as it may take a little longer to restart and it's best not to send commands to the device until it's fully rebooted.

Let us know if this fixes the problem.

[guile]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Which Panasonic player do you have, UB820 or UB9000? Is the 4K HDR issue with streaming or a physical disc or a ripped file?

Two things to try:

1st, check for firmware update and do it if your player does not have the latest version.

2nd, do a full a/c reboot. Unplug the player from the electrical outlet for a full 10 minutes. While the player is unplugged press the on/of button on the front panel to ensure the capacitors are fully discharged.

Once you power on the player be patient as it may take a little longer to restart and it's best not to send commands to the device until it's fully rebooted.

Let us know if this fixes the problem.

Thank you Robert. I have the UB820 and this ONLY happens on the Youtube app WITH 4K titles that are in my library. I don't have any issues whatsoever with discs and/or Amazon 4K playback.

I continue to check (several times a week) for new firmware updates (would LOVE Vudu, Movies Anywhere, Plex or ANY other meaningful apps), so I'm good there.

I will do a full reboot and see if that solves the problem. I'll let you know.

Thanks again!!

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Thanks for the tip about Sicario, not that I'll use the SDR2020 output but that the 'real' peak is 1000 nits so I won't need to engage the Optimiser. Any more that have 1000-ish inside a 4000 mastering that don't show the MaxCLL in the on-disc metadata?

I think most of the early Lionsgate titles that have 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for display max have this issue. So in your case you would just turn Optimizer off and you should be fine (your display ignores metadata).

Most of these issues are a bigger deal for projectors.

[elwaylite]

I wonder if a workaround for us 9000 owners is, throw the disc in and use the second playback info window to determine if you use HDR Opt or not. So HDR Opt looks at Max CLL (if there is a value) and tone maps from that to 1000 in my case (OLED), not the 4000 nit number. And then I guess my Sony just throws out anything then it can't show.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

I wonder if a workaround for us 9000 owners is, throw the disc in and use the second playback info window to determine if you use HDR Opt or not. So HDR Opt looks at Max CLL (if there is a value) and tone maps from that to 1000 in my case (OLED), not the 4000 nit number. And then I guess my Sony just throws out anything then it can't show.

Sure, but the point that Kris is making is that some discs don't carry MaxCLL but have 4000-nit MDL, yet the actual content only reaches about 1000 nits peak anyway as determined by his (I'm guessing) Lumagen processor. The way you can fool the Optimiser into mapping it down properly (preserving the correct APL as much as anything) is with the SDR2020 workaround and its 1000-nit clip, otherwise the Optimiser will just map what it thinks is a whole 4000-nit image and not even the 9000 can do anything about that.

Kris, in what order does the Optimiser determine what to map to? Does it always look at MaxCLL first, then go onto MaxMDL if there's no CLL data there? From my testing with various discs and patterns it seems to look at MaxMDL first? Or will it only look at MaxCLL if it exceeds the MDL?

[elwaylite]

Gotcha, to be honest, I haven't keep up with the differences in this data, until I saw this screen on the 9000. I just assumed HDR Opt looked at 1000 or 4000, but it makes more sense it would use 2900, 2500, 1800, whatever the actual "peak" nit # is.

I guess I am assuming, with my Sony, is if there is a 0 MaxCLL, a 4000 MDL, then I just cut it off for that flick. Hopefully that type of situation is not something you'd see going forward.

[elwaylite]

Threw in tonight's movie, the new Halloween, just out of curiosity. Neat how these discs are all over the place.

[cjake]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Thanks for the tip about Sicario, not that I'll use the SDR2020 output but that the 'real' peak is 1000 nits so I won't need to engage the Optimiser. Any more that have 1000-ish inside a 4000 mastering that don't show the MaxCLL in the on-disc metadata?

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I think most of the early Lionsgate titles that have 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for display max have this issue. So in your case you would just turn Optimizer off and you should be fine (your display ignores metadata).

Most of these issues are a bigger deal for projectors.

These early Lionsgate titles all have MaxDML = 4000 and MaxCLL = 0.

Divergent
Ender's Game
Expendables 3, The
Gods of Egypt
Insurgent
Last Witch Hunter, The
Now You See Me

[cjake]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Kris, in what order does the Optimiser determine what to map to? Does it always look at MaxCLL first, then go onto MaxMDL if there's no CLL data there? From my testing with various discs and patterns it seems to look at MaxMDL first? Or will it only look at MaxCLL if it exceeds the MDL?

Kris posted about this early in this thread with respect to the HDR Optimizer while in SDR/BT2020 mode:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1004

[elwaylite]

So on a title Like Halloween 2018, and it being less than 500 nits CLL, using OLED setting, is HDR Optimizer doing anything?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by cjake

These early Lionsgate titles all have MaxDML = 4000 and MaxCLL = 0.

Divergent
Ender's Game
Expendables 3, The
Gods of Egypt
Insurgent
Last Witch Hunter, The
Now You See Me

Yes, I know of the discs themselves which have CLL = 0 and MDL = 4000, it's the specifics of what the content physically measures at its peak on those other titles which is what I was after, seeing as Kris's gear can analyse the content as such. Call him Mr Metadata

Originally Posted by bobbyg53

We observe a pronounced visible difference in luminance and darkly shaded color reproduction during playback of certain SDR blu-ray discs when toggling between the Mid/High Luminance LCD mode and the Super High Luminance LCD mode on a Sony X900E. Some older “dim” SDR titles look better with the 1,500 nit setting, most newer “bright” SDR titles look better with the 1,000 nit setting on this display.

In either case, the Panasonic’s picture is noticeably superior to that of our Sony X800 player when viewing the same material.

I can't discern a difference - either visible to teh naked eye or quantifiably measured - across all four settings when running an SDR greyscale calibration on the ZD9. Luminance levels, RGB mix, colour temperature, all identical (naturally occuring fractions of variances in measurements aside), as are black/white clipping patterns.

[Geoff D]

In other news, I noticed some banding on HDR greyscale ramps when the HDR Optimiser is engaged. This is something that's always been in the back of my mind re: the Optimiser, whether it had enough of an overhead with bit depth to be able to truly process these images in a 'lossless' fashion, and unfortunately it definitely has an effect, visible in both test patterns (dem ramps) and real world content.

This isn't related to the actual tone mapping itself of the Optimiser because this happens when the Optimiser circuit is engaged and the image isn't being outwardly modified at all, e.g. playing 1000-nit MDL content on the 1500-nit Super High mode. There's no objectively measurable difference on such content re: mapping or light levels with it on or off, but simply by turning the circuit 'on' the image is being routed thru that processing, and it shows.

It's REALLY hard to capture the ramps in a photo, all they do is come out looking awful either way but you'll just have to take my word for it that the ramps are smooth as buttah without it. I looked at some real world content instead, stuff that I know from recent discussions in the UHD movies threads that can be tipped into bandingsville if the processing is throttling the bit depth somewhere. I checked the final shot of Exodus on UHD disc where they're all walking into the distance with the bright sky overhead, something that Velvet mentioned, and while the gradations look rather good with the Optimiser off there's a faint but definite 'rainbow' effect that occurs with the Optimiser on, even though this title isn't being remapped at all (MaxCLL o nit, MaxMDL 1100-nit)

Another example is the Sony UHD disc of Blade Runner 2049 which had some quite vocal protests from some members who could see bad banding on their TVs, whereas it looked *slightly* questionable on mine but nothing overtly murderous. The MaxMDL is 4000 nits but the MaxCLL is 457 nits so there's no remapping going on here by the player with the Optimiser on but, again, banding in some scenes is quite pronounced with it enabled. This I did manage to get a photo of, make of it what you will (factoring in the extra compression from the image hoster):

Optimiser OFF



Optimiser ON



It might be hard to make out but there's a definite 'rainbow' effect in the ON pic about three-quarters of the way up, as well as visible false contouring in the 'hump' just below it. I've yet to check this with content that has better-defined gradations and I'm fairly certain that it won't be too obvious because a better source = cleaner processing thereof, 'twas ever thus, but with stuff that runs out of bit depth real fast then it's not a pretty sight.

Yes, I'm running the Panny in upsampled 12-bit output BUT I've checked this with the 10-bit priority output as well and the exact same effects are visible. And double yes, people will say "well, don't leave it on then with BR2049 if you don't need to do any remapping!" but that's not the point as I can also see the banding on a 0-10000 nit greyscale ramp. I've used those specific examples of actual content to show that this is a quirk with the Optimiser's processing pathway, regardless of it doing any remapping or not.

Boy, I bet y'all are SO glad I bought one of these.

[guile]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Which Panasonic player do you have, UB820 or UB9000? Is the 4K HDR issue with streaming or a physical disc or a ripped file?

Two things to try:

1st, check for firmware update and do it if your player does not have the latest version.

2nd, do a full a/c reboot. Unplug the player from the electrical outlet for a full 10 minutes. While the player is unplugged press the on/of button on the front panel to ensure the capacitors are fully discharged.

Once you power on the player be patient as it may take a little longer to restart and it's best not to send commands to the device until it's fully rebooted.

Let us know if this fixes the problem.

Rebooted and even tried a few other setting changes but...no dice. As I said, I can watch 4K content through the Youtube app perfectly. It's just my library that will only play in standard definition.

Makes no sense...

[Cortiz]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

In other news, I noticed some banding on HDR greyscale ramps when the HDR Optimiser is engaged. This is something that's always been in the back of my mind re: the Optimiser, whether it had enough of an overhead with bit depth to be able to truly process these images in a 'lossless' fashion, and unfortunately it definitely has an effect, visible in both test patterns (dem ramps) and real world content.

This isn't related to the actual tone mapping itself of the Optimiser because this happens when the Optimiser circuit is engaged and the image isn't being outwardly modified at all, e.g. playing 1000-nit MDL content on the 1500-nit Super High mode. There's no objectively measurable difference on such content re: mapping or light levels with it on or off, but simply by turning the circuit 'on' the image is being routed thru that processing, and it shows.

It's REALLY hard to capture the ramps in a photo, all they do is come out looking awful either way but you'll just have to take my word for it that the ramps are smooth as buttah without it. I looked at some real world content instead, stuff that I know from recent discussions in the UHD movies threads that can be tipped into bandingsville if the processing is throttling the bit depth somewhere. I checked the final shot of Exodus on UHD disc where they're all walking into the distance with the bright sky overhead, something that Velvet mentioned, and while the gradations look rather good with the Optimiser off there's a faint but definite 'rainbow' effect that occurs with the Optimiser on, even though this title isn't being remapped at all (MaxCLL o nit, MaxMDL 1100-nit)

Another example is the Sony UHD disc of Blade Runner 2049 which had some quite vocal protests from some members who could see bad banding on their TVs, whereas it looked *slightly* questionable on mine but nothing overtly murderous. The MaxMDL is 4000 nits but the MaxCLL is 457 nits so there's no remapping going on here by the player with the Optimiser on but, again, banding in some scenes is quite pronounced with it enabled. This I did manage to get a photo of, make of it what you will (factoring in the extra compression from the image hoster):

Optimiser OFF



Optimiser ON



It might be hard to make out but there's a definite 'rainbow' effect in the ON pic about three-quarters of the way up, as well as visible false contouring in the 'hump' just below it. I've yet to check this with content that has better-defined gradations and I'm fairly certain that it won't be too obvious because a better source = cleaner processing thereof, 'twas ever thus, but with stuff that runs out of bit depth real fast then it's not a pretty sight.

Yes, I'm running the Panny in upsampled 12-bit output BUT I've checked this with the 10-bit priority output as well and the exact same effects are visible. And double yes, people will say "well, don't leave it on then with BR2049 if you don't need to do any remapping!" but that's not the point as I can also see the banding on a 0-10000 nit greyscale ramp. I've used those specific examples of actual content to show that this is a quirk with the Optimiser's processing pathway, regardless of it doing any remapping or not.

Boy, I bet y'all are SO glad I bought one of these.

So Geoff, have you reached a verdict between the 820 and the Oppo 203? Which one you prefer?

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by guile

Rebooted and even tried a few other setting changes but...no dice. As I said, I can watch 4K content through the Youtube app perfectly. It's just my library that will only play in standard definition.

Makes no sense...

What is the file format and audio?

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, but the point that Kris is making is that some discs don't carry MaxCLL but have 4000-nit MDL, yet the actual content only reaches about 1000 nits peak anyway as determined by his (I'm guessing) Lumagen processor. The way you can fool the Optimiser into mapping it down properly (preserving the correct APL as much as anything) is with the SDR2020 workaround and its 1000-nit clip, otherwise the Optimiser will just map what it thinks is a whole 4000-nit image and not even the 9000 can do anything about that.

Kris, in what order does the Optimiser determine what to map to? Does it always look at MaxCLL first, then go onto MaxMDL if there's no CLL data there? From my testing with various discs and patterns it seems to look at MaxMDL first? Or will it only look at MaxCLL if it exceeds the MDL?

For tone mapping it will use MaxCLL if lower than Mastering Display. If MaxCLL is higher than Mastering Display (Mad Max), it uses Mastering Display. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses Mastering Display. Not sure exactly what it would do if they were both 0. I think Life of Pi is the only title I can think of off the top of my head with that situation.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

Gotcha, to be honest, I haven't keep up with the differences in this data, until I saw this screen on the 9000. I just assumed HDR Opt looked at 1000 or 4000, but it makes more sense it would use 2900, 2500, 1800, whatever the actual "peak" nit # is.

I guess I am assuming, with my Sony, is if there is a 0 MaxCLL, a 4000 MDL, then I just cut it off for that flick. Hopefully that type of situation is not something you'd see going forward.

Your Sony never looked at the metadata, it just does PQ until it doesn't. So the metadata never meant anything. The benefit of the Panasonic would be how the upper end roll off would be so you'd avoid any clipping.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by bobbyg53

We observe a pronounced visible difference in luminance and darkly shaded color reproduction during playback of certain SDR blu-ray discs when toggling between the Mid/High Luminance LCD mode and the Super High Luminance LCD mode on a Sony X900E. Some older “dim” SDR titles look better with the 1,500 nit setting, most newer “bright” SDR titles look better with the 1,000 nit setting on this display.

In either case, the Panasonic’s picture is noticeably superior to that of our Sony X800 player when viewing the same material.

There should be absolutely no difference when playing back standard Blu-ray discs (I assume that is what you mean when you say SDR?). The display type has no bearing on standard Blu-ray and also only applies with the HDR Optimizer in the ON position, even with HDR.