HDR Discussion Thread

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by batman2000

i talking about reaching 100% rec. 2020 or only slightly behind that in other words when will it be at it's peak

I'm not the best tech savvy person to probably answer this question. I thought some display manufacturer's are claiming they're close to 95-99% of 2020 now, but not so sure who. (or if really true.)

When panels get to 12 bit processing, that will be a new peak for color volume, and DV 12-bit encoded material should look glorious. Can't say when that is though, as we've only had 10-bit panels for a couple of years now.

[Geoff D]

Even professional mastering displays don't get anywhere near that level of 2020 coverage, and most high-end consumer displays will get to somewhere around 65%.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Samsung

Courtesy of the lady inventor, Li Tao (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12582945), a couple months back on this thread I posted snippets of flow charts from this document…..http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20160381335.pdf during discussion with Dan.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Even professional mastering displays....

Little known fact, even the industry critical color correcting monitor BVM-X300 doesn’t achieve 100% DCI P3.

[Penton-Man]

Canned Heat - On The Road Again [HQ] - YouTube

to NAB.

Following that, in June…. http://www.cinegearexpo.com/la-expo-overview

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Little known fact, even the industry critical color correcting monitor BVM-X300 doesn’t achieve 100% DCI P3.

Yeah, I remember you saying that before.

[zmarty]

Since I am actively looking for a new grading monitor, let me share some NAB 2017 news:

In November 2016 Panasonic announced that they have created a panel with 1,000,000:1 contrast at a sustained brightness of 1000 nits. The contrast is the same as an OLED panel, but with none of the OLED drawbacks, such as brightness limiting. Until now the best contrast ratio you could get with an LED panel was less than 20,000:1 with most displays at less than 1000:1. This new panel is to be produced in 12, 31, and 55 inch versions.

This week EIZO and FSI announced two color grading monitors using this panel:
EIZO CG3145 and FSI XM31K

FSI XM31K

I expect the prices to be in the (eye watering) range of $6,000 - $30,000 (my best guess is 10K).

The good news is that this panel is easy to manufacture, so I expect to see it in TVs by 2018 or so.

It also means there will be cheaper alternatives to Sony BVM-X300.

[2themax]

Check out the LUM-310R from TVLogic too.

http://www.panoramaaudiovisual.com/e...oled-monitors/
http://www.pyser-sgi.com/images/adde...m_310r_low.pdf

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Check out the LUM-310R from TVLogic too.

http://www.panoramaaudiovisual.com/e...oled-monitors/
http://www.pyser-sgi.com/images/adde...m_310r_low.pdf

Thanks, I missed this one. Sadly it uses a "local-dimming backlight array" so it's just a standard LED with backlight. They have insane prices too (15K or more). For that price I would buy the ones with Panasonic panel.

Hopefully some new player will come and shake up the color grading monitor market, the prices are ridiculous.

[Richard Paul]

The person who runs the Ultra4K Twitter feed has posted several negative comments about HDR10+. He has been promoting Dolby Vision for over a year saying that there was no format war since it is compatible with HDR10 and that there are no problems with having multiple HDR formats. Now though HDR10+ comes out and he starts saying that it will never get added to Ultra HD Blu-ray, that multiple HDR formats will confuse consumers, and how horrible Samsung is for making a free HDR format that competes with Dolby Vision instead of paying money to Dolby. Granted maybe he has just really bought into Dolby's marketing but it is a bit strange.

Originally Posted by batman2000

i talking about reaching 100% rec. 2020 or only slightly behind that in other words when will it be at it's peak

A few prototype displays have gotten to 98% but they were using professional laser projectors. Quantum dot backlights can get over 90% but the light has to travel through the LCD color filters which greatly decrease that since they weren't made for it. Improved LCD color filters will eventually be made but it might take a while since the factories work in large quantities (tens of millions per year).

[Geoff D]

Heh. People have bought into DV big time as being the saviour of HDR, so I'm not surprised those folks will react like this. We can't have Dolby's thunder being stolen, can we?

[StingingVelvet]

Humans are tribal and very predictable once you crack the code.

[HeatEquation]

Dolby Vision fangirls have been hilarious since the official announcement of HDR10+. It's been very entertaining.

Also, there's almost no chance that it won't get added to the UHD BD specs. In fact, it can, and should, replace HDR10 as the base layer, since HDR10+ is backwards compatible with HDR10.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Dolby Vision fangirls have been hilarious since the official announcement of HDR10+. It's been very entertaining.

Also, there's almost no chance that it won't get added to the UHD BD specs. In fact, it can, and should, replace HDR10 as the base layer, since HDR10+ is backwards compatible with HDR10.

Yeah. Keep believing that.


So HDR10 will be a dynamic clusterf--- of non-standard calibration instead of the clusterf--- it is now.


I also don't see anyone else but Samsung rushing to embrace it. Vizio? Sony? Hello?


Meanwhile DV is here, it works, and doesn't require HDMI 2.1

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yeah. Keep believing that.


So HDR10 will be a dynamic clusterf--- of non-standard calibration instead of the clusterf--- it is now.


I also don't see anyone else but Samsung rushing to embrace it. Vizio? Sony? Hello?


Meanwhile DV is here, it works, and doesn't require HDMI 2.1

^ Prime example of what I was referring to.

Why would it be any more of a clusterf*ck than it is now? Since HDR10+ is backward compatible with HDR10, if HDR10+ became the base layer, those with HDR10+ would get the HDR10+ version, while those with displays that only support HDR10 would get the same format minus the dynamic metadata. No one loses in this scenario.

Who else will embrace it? Anyone who wants to. It's an open standard, unlike Dolby Vision.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

^ Prime example of what I was referring to.

Why would it be any more of a clusterf*ck than it is now? Since HDR10+ is backward compatible with HDR10, if HDR10+ became the base layer, those with HDR10+ would get the HDR10+ version, while those with displays that only support HDR10 would get the same format minus the dynamic metadata. No one loses in this scenario.

Who else will embrace it? Anyone who wants to. It's an open standard, unlike Dolby Vision.

Well calling people who think DV is the superior solution "Fangirls" is a stupid and offensive way to open a conversation.


Second HDR10 is a cluster, period. Warner's standard is different from Fox is different from Lionsgate and so on.


Only DV has parameters set that run from transfer to display.


HDR10+ is still 10 bit, which is fine for now. What about the coming 12-bit displays in the future? There's still banding in HDR10.


Open standards don't matter as much as some people think they do. Notoriously cheap Vizio had no problem being the first with DV displays on the market. No, this is Samsung's folly.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well calling people who think DV is the superior solution "Fangirls" is a stupid and offensive way to open a conversation.


Second HDR10 is a cluster, period. Warner's standard is different from Fox is different from Lionsgate and so on.


Only DV has parameters set that run from transfer to display.


HDR10+ is still 10 bit, which is fine for now. What about the coming 12-bit displays in the future? There's still banding in HDR10.


Open standards don't matter as much as some people think they do. Notoriously cheap Vizio had no problem being the first with DV displays on the market. No, this is Samsung's folly.

Why worry about something that's so far away? By the time 12 bit panels come out, we'll have even more HDR formats, and I'm sure some will be 12 bit.

Vizio desperately needed to add DV to their P series (which they did) because the Vizio P's HDR10 performance is on par with SDR.

[DanBa]

"More bits" is always better: more bits less video noises.
The 10-bit panel Sony Z9D has an internal 14-bit video processing.


HDR10 will remain HDR10.

HDR10Plus won’t replace HDR10 as a base layer: HDR10Plus has a different fundamental HDR building block combination:
HDR10 = PQ (+) static metadata
HDR10Plus = PQ + static metadata + dynamic metadata.

Let’s suppose HDR10 is replaced by HDR10Plus as a base layer by some miracle, different current HDR systems will keep using "PQ (+) static metadata", i.e. HDR10Plus without dynamic metadata, i.e. HDR10:
. VP9-PQ YouTube HDR
VP9-PQ YouTube HDR file >> Internet >> VP9-PQ STB / media player like Chromecast Ultra >> uncompressed CTA HDR10 video >> HDR10 / VP9-PQ compliant TV
. Ultra HD Blu-ray specification: HDR10 is a base layer of Dolby Vision
. DVB UHD Phase 2 / ATSC 3.0 (candidate standard) will use HDR10 with / without static metadata (broadcast infrastructure can't afford metadata).

HDR10Plus, a dynamic metadata HDR format based on open standard SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung), can’t be a base layer for another dynamic metadata HDR format, like:
. Proprietary Dolby Vision
. Open standard "Dolby Vision" or open standard SMPTE 2094-10 (Dolby) Dynamic HDR (so far not endorsed by any entity as far as I know)
. Possible future Dynamic HDR à la Dolby Vision / HDR10Plus based on open standard SMPTE 2094-20 (Philips) or SMPTE 2094-30 (Technicolor).

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

... get added to Ultra HD Blu-ray ...

Can a feature like HDR10Plus not (yet?) specified/endorsed by the BDA get added to a Ultra HD Blu-ray player?

Thanks

Current Ultra HD Blu-ray specification:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Do...0729_clean.pdf
"2.2.3.3.5 Supported HDR technologies
This format defines three types of HDR video formats: BDMV HDR, Dolby Vision and Philips HDR.
The BDMV HDR is the HDR video format which is mandatory for player in this specification. The Dolby Vision and Philips HDR are the optional HDR video technologies for players and discs. The Dolby Vision and Philips HDR technologies use metadata that has also been submitted to the SMPTE for consideration."

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"More bits" is always better: more bits less video noises.
The 10-bit panel Sony Z9D has an internal 14-bit video processing.


HDR10 will remain HDR10.

HDR10Plus won’t replace HDR10 as a base layer: HDR10Plus has a different fundamental HDR building block combination:
HDR10 = PQ (+) static metadata
HDR10Plus = PQ + static metadata + dynamic metadata.

Let’s suppose HDR10 is replaced by HDR10Plus as a base layer by some miracle, different current HDR systems will keep using "PQ (+) static metadata", i.e. HDR10Plus without dynamic metadata, i.e. HDR10:
. VP9-PQ YouTube HDR
VP9-PQ YouTube HDR file >> Internet >> VP9-PQ STB / media player like Chromecast Ultra >> uncompressed CTA HDR10 video >> HDR10 / VP9-PQ compliant TV
. Ultra HD Blu-ray specification: HDR10 is a base layer of Dolby Vision
. DVB UHD Phase 2 / ATSC 3.0 (candidate standard) will use HDR10 with / without static metadata (broadcast infrastructure can't afford metadata).

HDR10Plus, a dynamic metadata HDR format based on open standard SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung), can’t be a base layer for another dynamic metadata HDR format, like:
. Proprietary Dolby Vision
. Open standard "Dolby Vision" or open standard SMPTE 2094-10 (Dolby) Dynamic HDR (so far not endorsed by any entity as far as I know)
. Possible future Dynamic HDR à la Dolby Vision / HDR10Plus based on open standard SMPTE 2094-20 (Philips) or SMPTE 2094-30 (Technicolor).

Fair enough. If it can't really be used as the base for other dynamic metadata formats, then at the very least it will get added to the UHD specs as an optional choice. If Philips was able to get their version passed, a format that still has exactly zero content and no future content announced, then there's no doubt Samsung will as well, given that they've at least got Amazon on board, with Netflix likely to follow (streaming content, but still content nevertheless.)