Justice League 4K UHD (2017)

[Geoff D]

"Collect the tokens and make your own Cinematic Universe! Results guaranteed in 30 days or your money back!"

[pottyaboutpotter1]

It’s just sad really.

JL was meant to be the course correction for the franchise. The film that would bring everyone back on board after BVS was one of the most divisive movies in recent memory. Instead it’s perhaps even more divisive than BVS, will cause WB to lose up to $100 million if not more and has left the DCEU in disarray. I don’t think WB knows where to take this franchise anymore. Will they carry on? Will they just do Wonder Woman movies and attempt to reboot the franchise with a new Batman? Will any of the movies planned after Wonder Woman 2 actually be made? (I will be annoyed if we don’t get Matt Reeves’s Batman).

At least the performance of this film should hopefully give other studios pause before they attempt to launch a cinematic universe and rush it without putting in the work like Marvel and The Conjuring did.

[Geoff D]

Instead of being the culmination of the DCEU this movie has become its death shroud, it's a quite remarkable turn of events after Wondy had looked to have saved the day. I'm not sure there's been a bigger disaster than this in recent years in terms of what was riding on it.

[reanimator]

Originally Posted by BluRayHiDef

Interesting. I don't see the point of such a director's cut if it isn't guaranteed a release.

It wasn't always like this. Prior to the 1960s, it was not uncommon for a director to have almost no input into the cut of the film at all -- the producer oversaw editing. Even today, in TV most directors spend very little time in the cutting room.

But nowadays, in feature films, an editor is usually given about 8 weeks to build a cut of the film without input from anybody -- again, a union rule, this time from the Editor's guild. Then a director comes in and spends a few weeks making revisions with the editor before delivering a "director's cut" to the studio. At that point the studio can accept it as a final locked picture, but more often the studio, producers, executive producers will all offer notes. The politics of film making deems that a director who wants to keep directing will listen to these notes, and make some amount of changes. When there is a huge disconnect between the director and producers, directors are often asked to step aside -- quietly. If the director digs their heels in, you get the more public instances of a director getting fired.

So a "director's cut" exists as a contractual courtesy extended to the film's director, and their cut often closely reflects exactly what the studio wanted -- that's why they hired the director in the first place.

With Snyder specifically, you have a situation where MAN OF STEEL, BATMAN VS SUPERMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE (even before release) were all considered under-performers, disappointments at both the artistic and commercial level. WB wants Marvel level success, and they're not getting it. That is, until WONDER WOMAN came out, and a non-Snyder DC movie suddenly caught fire. From what I'm hearing, that was the final straw. Half of WB didn't want Snyder directing JUSTICE LEAGUE in the first place, and after he turned in his contractually guaranteed directors cut he was politely shown the door. Not just from JUSTICE LEAGUE. It's my understanding that Snyder will not be asked to direct any further DC movies for WB.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Instead of being the culmination of the DCEU this movie has become its death shroud, it's a quite remarkable turn of events after Wondy had looked to have saved the day. I'm not sure there's been a bigger disaster than this in recent years in terms of what was riding on it.

No doubt, but the whole enterprise isn't beyond saving. Just need to go back to basics -- solo movies, focus on each character, don't worry about the continuity and universe building -- and work back up towards another team-up. The last thing I want is all these characters rebooted again, and frankly Wonder Woman and Aquaman are already past the point at which they could do that.

[xbs2034]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

Yeah, reportedly Warners were already considering giving him the boot.

Contractually they couldn't have fired him from reshoots and post production except for "gross willful misconduct" once he completed principal photography.

I do think they wanted him out after seeing the audience response to BvS, and their big mistake was scheduling the start of shooting JL so soon after BvS released, which would've meant a costly and embarrassing delay as there was no time to find another director.

[imsounoriginal]

Guarantee you WB wishes they'd delayed Justice League at that time. The "embarrassment" they would've experienced then is nothing compared to what they're going through right now lol

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

No doubt, but the whole enterprise isn't beyond saving. Just need to go back to basics -- solo movies, focus on each character, don't worry about the continuity and universe building -- and work back up towards another team-up. The last thing I want is all these characters rebooted again, and frankly Wonder Woman and Aquaman are already past the point at which they could do that.

Aquaman didn't even get the first boot yet never mind a reboot! But I didn't say that DC comic book movies were dead, I said the DCEU is dead. (Bury it.) As you say, they'll look to Wondy and another Batman series and all those Sirens spin-offs to keep the enterprise going but they can't half-ass the whole team-up thing, not again.

Heck, the thing about what Marvel did is that it's not even that goddamned complicated: apart from the obvious sops to the Avengers world-building in IM2 they let the other movies be their own things and tell their own stories, they just put a tag on right at the very end to keep it all connected. All the studios trying to replicate this can't see the wood for the trees, they feel they've got to stuff their movies chock full o' nuts almost right from the start. And while I get the BvS = IM2 angle let's be fair here: Widow and Fury and Stark aren't in the same ****ing galaxy as Bats, Supes and Wondy when it comes to classic comic book heroes, and to have the Trinity jobbing as team-up-movie bait in just the second DCEU movie always felt wrong to me.

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Guarantee you WB wishes they'd delayed Justice League at that time. The "embarrassment" they would've experienced then is nothing compared to what they're going through right now lol

I'd give anything to be a fly on that wall right now, they thought they were going to fix JL with that Avengers guy but instead the situation has become an even bigger cluster**** than the reception that would've greeted Snyder's eventual cut of JL, had he stayed on the project.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'd give anything to be a fly on that wall right now, they thought they were going to fix JL with that Avengers guy but instead the situation has become an even bigger cluster**** than the reception that would've greeted Snyder's eventual cut of JL, had he stayed on the project.

This I totally agree with. Everything Snyder had planned for Justice League (most of which he shot) sounds like a masterpiece compared to the Frankenstein mashup we got. I always tell people who don't enjoy Snyder's work at least he had a VISION. WB's biggest problem is that they don't stand behind their directors. If they had a problem accepting what Zack Snyder wanted to do, they should have fired him after Man of Steel. Going along with Batman v Superman and then Justice League committed them. It made no sense to bring in Joss Whedon because he is nothing like Snyder in style or tone. It would be like hiring Brett Ratner to finish Eyes Wide Shut for Stanley Kubrick because he directed The Family Man. WB was too stupid to realize that Zack Snyder's VISION has a fan base and the logical thing to do would have been to let their director finish telling his story. DC comics has plenty of ways to reboot universes and Flashpoint will allow them to make all the character and continuity changes they desire. So the bottom-line is WB screwed the pooch here and has nobody to blame for the outcome but themselves. It's worth noting several news reports pointed out that WB president Toby Emmerich and CEO Kevin Tsujihara were motivated to “preserve their bonuses” that were to be paid out prior to Time Warner’s impending merger with AT&T. If Justice League was delayed, those bonuses would be pushed back to 2018, and “they might not still be at the studio.” Cooperate greed should never be underestimated and therein lies the true reason why Justice League sucks and why fallout should be handled directly at the top. Delaying Justice League would have been the best thing to do for the movie and the moral thing to do for the director.

[Pieter V]

Justice League / Fabian Wagner, ASC, BSC, Episode #84

https://ascmag.com/podcasts/justice-...wagner-asc-bsc

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

This I totally agree with. Everything Snyder had planned for Justice League (most of which he shot) sounds like a masterpiece compared to the Frankenstein mashup we got. I always tell people who don't enjoy Snyder's work at least he had a VISION. WB's biggest problem is that they don't stand behind their directors. If they had a problem accepting what Zack Snyder wanted to do, they should have fired him after Man of Steel. Going along with Batman v Superman and then Justice League committed them. It made no sense to bring in Joss Whedon because he is nothing like Snyder in style or tone. It would be like hiring Brett Ratner to finish Eyes Wide Shut for Stanley Kubrick because he directed The Family Man. WB was too stupid to realize that Zack Snyder's VISION has a fan base and the logical thing to do would have been to let their director finish telling his story. DC comics has plenty of ways to reboot universes and Flashpoint will allow them to make all the character and continuity changes they desire.

Just wondering, which director would you have brought in to replace him? I thought Whedon was chosen because he had been working behind the scenes already with Snyder on the film and they were in crunch time. I don't believe the decision to have Whedon take over was about style or vision, just a simple pragmatic choice to get the movie out on time.

Not sure many/any director could fill in for Snyder's stylistic choices.

[AdubW1982]

I hope they actually take the time with the extended cut to make the movie better. I don't care how much longer the runtime will be.

[SwaGGInTheShadows]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

Just wondering, which director would you have brought in to replace him? I thought Whedon was chosen because he had been working behind the scenes already with Snyder on the film and they were in crunch time. I don't believe the decision to have Whedon take over was about style or vision, just a simple pragmatic choice to get the movie out on time.

Not sure many/any director could fill in for Snyder's stylistic choices.

now im wondering where you read Whedon and Snyder had been working together behind the scenes...

that just screams contradiction lol

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

Just wondering, which director would you have brought in to replace him? I thought Whedon was chosen because he had been working behind the scenes already with Snyder on the film and they were in crunch time. I don't believe the decision to have Whedon take over was about style or vision, just a simple pragmatic choice to get the movie out on time.

Not sure many/any director could fill in for Snyder's stylistic choices.

Here is my top 3 list of Directors who could have finished the film for Zack Snyder instead of Whedon

George Miller (Mad Max Franchise)
Christopher Nolan (The Dark Knight Trilogy)
Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman)

All three of my picks are WB directors who could have stepped in following Zack Snyder's blue print. I believe WB probably went to Nolan first since he was the man in charge who hired Snyder. I do not think we would have gotten such a vast amount of reshoots and changes if any one of these directors would have finished Justice League. Joss Whedon was an extremely poor choice and the amount of authority he had when it came to changes was outrageous. The way WB downplayed his role as if he was just doing really minor things and pickup shots. It's being reported in some places that Whedon reshot over 60% of the film, which makes this a bigger controversy than Richard Donner's Superman II. It should have been an immediate red flag when Whedon fired the composer Junkie XL and replaced him with Danny Elfman. I'm not saying the score was horrible, but the music felt completely out of place when you take into account the previous films. Finally, the extremely pulsating red flag of red flags is the fact that the Cinematographer Fabian Wanger was not involved in anything Joss Whedon did on Justice League!

[RustinCohle]

This is up there with Suicide Squad for me. Meaning I'll wait until they have so much stock built up from people not buying, that they'll just start giving away copies for free at the register.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by RustinCohle

This is up there with Suicide Squad for me. Meaning I'll wait until they have so much stock built up from people not buying, that they'll just start giving away copies for free at the register.

Exactly! The theatrical version of Justice League is essentially worthless and if the rumors are true that an extended cut is coming out, but is going to be Whedon's Director's Cut, WB won't be getting a nickel from me. If WB expands their stupidity on that level, they might as well remove Zack Snyder's directing credit altogether. In-fact I think I'll start that petition eventually.

[meatball_84]

I don't think Whedon is fully to blame. I would think that he probably came on board with the intention of finishing the film Snyder's way. I think that after he took over WB pushed him further and further away from the original version. He probably had a 2hr 25min cut, then the studio forced him to cut it down below 2hrs. There are some rough scenes(the Russian family), I think there are some scenes out of order(the big battle in the past should have been the opening scene), and I do think that Elfmans score is trash compared to what we would have gotten from Junkie XL.

I also really wanted Black Suit Superman!

I am excited to get any kind of extended cut. I will take Whedons if it gives me a better movie than what I saw. Ultimately though, I do want to see the cut closest to what Snyder invisioned. I am a big back Snyder fan. Man of Steel is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I absolutely love BvS(Ultimate)

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by meatball_84

I don't think Whedon is fully to blame. I would think that he probably came on board with the intention of finishing the film Snyder's way. I think that after he took over WB pushed him further and further away from the original version. He probably had a 2hr 25min cut, then the studio forced him to cut it down below 2hrs. There are some rough scenes(the Russian family), I think there are some scenes out of order(the big battle in the past should have been the opening scene), and I do think that Elfmans score is trash compared to what we would have gotten from Junkie XL.

I also really wanted Black Suit Superman!

I am excited to get any kind of extended cut. I will take Whedons if it gives me a better movie than what I saw. Ultimately though, I do want to see the cut closest to what Snyder invisioned. I am a big back Snyder fan. Man of Steel is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I absolutely love BvS(Ultimate)

According to the Cinematographer Fabian Wanger, the black suited Superman scenes where shot! WB's mandates of a lighter tone and their cooperate greed is what killed Zack Snyder's version of Justice League. It's difficult to believe that Whedon didn't sabotage the film by virtue of the fact that too much was changed. The list of changes is like a phone book. Joss Whedon could have found a way to truncate the core of Snyder's vision into two hours, but instead he gave us Age of Ultron 2.0 (JL)[version]

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by SwaGGInTheShadows

now im wondering where you read Whedon and Snyder had been working together behind the scenes...

that just screams contradiction lol

From what I remember reading, Whedon was brought on to help with minor refinements to dialogue. It was never intended that he take over. That was purely due to Snyder's tragedy.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

From what I remember reading, Whedon was brought on to help with minor refinements to dialogue. It was never intended that he take over. That was purely due to Snyder's tragedy.

Yeah that's what it was supposed to be minor refinements. Instead it became a totally different movie.